TT Randomiser

[Gnurk]

Question by TwikleToon in the Lure 101 thread:

If I cast a lure and miss should I try again on the same cog? Or if I miss should I give up?

Answer by Dandy:
DEFINETLY try again

The issue of random effects in TT was raised a couple o times in that thread but it was always a bit too off-topic to get into so I made a new thread to discuss the in my view utterly sukky randomiser in TT.

I have a very strong feeling that ups and downs come in waves in TT. Once a lure fails, the chances that the next lure fails again are high. The same applies to heals. Once a round of heals fails, there is a good chance that the next round of heals fails again. We all know these 'bewitched buildings' where nothing seems to work. I peronally also remember some buildings where red mags repeatedly and effortlessly pulled 4 level 10 and 11 big wigs and nothing could ever go wrong.

I know this is a can of worms (I play Settlers of Catan on the web and there is nothing on its forum which is as hotly debated as the algorithm that controls the dice) but I would like to hear if anyone has ever made sense of it anyway. The floor is open

[-rcv-]

I've certainly seen times when a specific Gag seems to be "jinxed". Times when three Toons pick Bamboo Cane, and they all miss, while a Megaphone will hit.

Usually, if I have a high-level Gag miss when it should have had a high chance to hit, I'll switch to a different Gag. For instance, if Goggles miss, I'll go to Big Magnet the next round.

Of course, you can neve tell if a Gag that you never used would have hit... :S

-rcv-
Kid Bugs

[Felix_M_Cattus]

I think that gag hits/misses are seeded at building creation time.

We certainly know that the cog types are, right? I mean, if you die in a building and go back in after you heal, the same exact cogs appear in the same positions on each floor. The thing is, I think the seed that determines gag hits and misses are the same, too. Example - my wife and I were in a 4 in the Brrgh once and got *creamed*. After 2 floors with 2 small cogs each, 2 fatties on the 3rd floor just would not die - we kept missing and missing with level 5 and 6 throws/squirts and level 5 toonups. They wore us out to the point that we died on the 4th floor. Well, we went back and just about had the *same thing* happen...except that I choose magnets each time instead of throwing stuff, and after 5 rounds one finally hit (just about when we got hits last time around with thows). Then we tooned up before beating them and hit the 4th floor with our biggest throws intact. It was eerie how similar the two patterns of hits and missed were.

So! If anyone's ever bored, try this - record what you do a building and whether it works or not, then TP out before the top floor. Then go back and do the same thing and see if it has the same result. I bet it does.

Anyway, this was a while back, and they've done some alterations to the way gags hit cogs even in LE in the last couple months, so I'm not sure if it's the same way now. But an interesting experiment to try, in any case.

[Scrat]

I think the roll is performed when the gags are chosen. My reason for believing this is on more than one occasion ive gotten chased out of a building by evil cogs. Being the stubborn type ive gone back in and had completely different results with the same gags.

[Gnurk]

Originally posted by Scrat
I think the roll is performed when the gags are chosen. My reason for believing this is on more than one occasion ive gotten chased out of a building by evil cogs. Being the stubborn type ive gone back in and had completely different results with the same gags.

Yes I agree, I don't recognise the repeated pattern on return either. Also, the bananabug seems to point a bit in that direction. It still doesn't explain why failure and success come in waves though and I am convinced they do.

[Rufflesticks]

Having seen other forums on random dice algos too... (shudder)

The cogs placements and the general level of Hellishness in the building seems consistent. I've died and come back and had the same things precisely happen though I've never recorded it.

Would love to know what the game picks to make a nice 5 level in Dreamland have level 10 down only cogs or level 10 up only... if it seeds on the tasks of the toons I'll cry

[MurkyMegaGloop]

I noticed an interesting thing while looking for Minglers. A team of us defeated a 4-story Sellbot in the Brrrgh. We then jumped districts and found the same exact building on the same street, also taken over by cogs and also a 4 level Sellbot.

We jumped in, and the cogs in this building were _identical_ to the one we had just defeated in the other district. Same cogs on the same floors. (Did not even consider the gag hit/miss 'pattern' at the time, though.)

It was kind of eerie...

[Gnurk]

Originally posted by MurkyMegaGloop
I noticed an interesting thing while looking for Minglers. A team of us defeated a 4-story Sellbot in the Brrrgh. We then jumped districts and found the same exact building on the same street, also taken over by cogs and also a 4 level Sellbot.

We jumped in, and the cogs in this building were _identical_ to the one we had just defeated in the other district. Same cogs on the same floors. (Did not even consider the gag hit/miss 'pattern' at the time, though.)

It was kind of eerie...

Oof that's interesting. That must be researchable in Seaweed or Baritone. That would suk real bad tho if it were true.

[CBD]

Originally posted by Gnurk
Answer by Dandy:
DEFINETLY try again

The funny thing is, when I solo, if my big mag misses once, I pull it out again, and it works.

Same with my mighty mag in test.

*shrug*

(I'm gonna try that recording thing today, neat idea)

(Oh yah, and see about that same cog thing)

[Pinky]

Originally posted by Gnurk
I play Settlers of Catan on the web

My friend has all the Catan games and we enjoy them very much. There is nothing mysterious about the odds of getting a particular number when throwing 2 six-sided die. However, the end result of the games consists of far more luck than I desire.

My primary enjoyment of the games in that the competition is that of a race rather than direct (military) conflict.

I have seen the use of cards to represent each die roll. Therefore, each one will come up randomly, but all the choices will come up once per 'round'. I dislike this more than the randomness, because you can adjust your strategy based on numbers you know you haven't seen. This adjustment of strategy makes more competitiveness for those areas.

[Gnurk]

Originally posted by Pinky
I dislike this more than the randomness, because you can adjust your strategy based on numbers you know you haven't seen.

I agree Pinky, I just brought it up because you can imagine the fuss people kick up on the boards when electronic dice roll 11 four times in a row. Paranoid as people tend to be, they find suspicious patterns in everything that resembles dice but doesn't actually hop around on a table top.

[The totally OT part:]

BTW, you'd be surprised how, in a community of people some of whom have more than a 1,000 games logged, there is consistency in who plays Catan well and who plays it less well. Dice or not - some people are just incredibly good at it. (And by the same token, others are incredibly bad at it )

Anyone who wants to have a stab at it: catan.cs.nwu.edu is where we are (well, those on Catan who haven't temporarily moved to TT). Rufflesticks is one of the admins so if she ever hopped on one of your blds, here's your chance to get her back

[Gnurk]

Oooo, Pinky, I am nicking this from the Win 2000 thread. It seems very On Topic here:

Quote from Pinky
With others, sometimes, right when the toon attack begins, I see the end of battle and then have to wait until the others finish seeing all the animations of the attacks. What I mean by seeing the end of battle is I see it as if the cogs had just hit everyone at once. What I see is the cumulative damage done to each toon. Again, I see this just as the toon attack starts, which gives an indication of when the calculations occur.

[Rufflesticks]

Hmmm... maybe we can get Cog Destroyer to add different notes to his map then What cogs appear in which buildings... Would love to know where the 18 +10s building was


Very OT As for Catan: i've noticed, generally, that the randomness only seems to really bother the players who worry more about their stats (go figure) than their fun. No wonder some of us have migrated to TT...

[Psycho Duck]

Rofl! Migrating. Heh... Thats funny.