Ambassadors: Boss Battle Guidelines?

[cputnal]

Hello,

Would the Ambassadors please be so kind as to review the currently posted boss battle guidelines for all three battles?

Apparently there are alternative boss battle strategies recently poisted here that some feel should be followed. However, almost every person new to the CCG reads those strategies and attempts to follow them. When we have long time members who neglect to do the same, it creates confusion.

For simple clarification, could we have a posting of notice to CCGer's that we either are, or are not, following those guidelines? And if there are changes to be made, an open and frank discussion of those changes?

thank you ever so much!

Craig

[Monkey Man 2]

CCG : CJ Strategy Guide!

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CCG : Lawbot CJ Strategy Guide
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Copied from kyga42066's post:

Please be very flexible in your battle. Fill in where you ARE NEEDED, not necessarily where you WANT to be. Use Chief Justice phrases to do this prior to scale battle so we have an idea who will be where and where you are needed. Stay AT YOUR TASK! Do not pull back to toon other toons as your main duty is to prevent cog evidence from filling their side of the scales. Do not block evidence thrown by those at the scales, please!!! The battle is won by our side of the scales hitting the bottom.

Craig
Above was copied from the CCG strategy guide for the CJ battle. I know of one of the battle that sparked this post I read your other post before it was removed. The first sentence covers your question very well. While I am not a mod or ambassador I have found being flexible is the most important thing during battle with any of the bosses. You got annoyed at not being able to stun the cogs on that run I can understand that but my question for you is this. You have stated that you seat 3 or 4 jurors on a run which gives you bonus weight; would the bonus weight not be more useful at the scale? You alted out due to what you felt as a lack of work on your part, not earning it. If you had applied your extra weight to the scales you would have earned it. I feel you are a great player and a great person in general but when something goes slightly against you, you vent. I think the battle strategies cover it well. To end this I will quote part of the guide again “Fill in where you ARE NEEDED, not necessarily where you WANT to be.”

Matt

The extra caps are in the guide not added by me.

[cputnal]

Oooopppsss! You forgot to copy the whole section above the one you published from the guide... here you go.....


#3 - Scale battle - MOST IMPORTANT and most tedious.

There are a set of scales in the middle of the room, Chief Justice on his stand, Bumpy Bumblebehr is on trial, and sometimes quite a few gavels dropping on us. There is a line of 8 cogs whose sole duty is to obstruct our toons from doing their duty. Those cogs also throw heavier (a weight of 6 pt, I believe) evidence into their side of the scales so - heed the following

a- We need no more than 3 toons throwing on the scales, evidence to throw is gotten by bumping the defences stand (where Bumpy is). The toons evidence usually weighs 1pt per so it is imperative to make each throw count. (The evidence weight is a variable, depending on the suit size and level of difficulty of the boss battle which is determined by the combined suit values in the elevator, and also the number of toons seated in the jury by a big wig.) Try to place your toon where hitting the scales is accurate, and yet you can avoid the evidence throw by the cogs. When their evidence hits you, you lose 5 pts. You can jump to avoid their evidence so keep an eye pealed to when they throw and watch for low flying evidence which is always headed toward a toon.

b- We need at least 4 throwers to stun the cogs. Those cogs are throwing on the scales, also. Stunning is done by standing close to the cogs and rotating on an axis and throwing evidence at them. The insert key is the throw key. Stunning them keeps them from throwing at the scales and at the toons. It is best to pick two adjacent cogs and rotate between them. Stay on that job the whole time please. It is helpful to have a roaming toon behind the stunners as a relief toon for whose who need to get more evidence and to toon up toons, although this tooning is NOT encouraged. Stunning all 8 cogs will give the toons a double bonus throw for scales and also a 10pt TU. This occurs for only 20 seconds but watch for retaliation by the Chief Justice, however. He will blow a horn and you will hear the same sound as the VP when he jumps. Keep alert and jump as you did in the VP. We are limited to one bonus time every 60 seconds, I believe. So be diligent with your stunning. I believe it is better for the toons to make sure all the cogs are stunned, as the 10pt is for everyone in the battle. If a toon is getting quite low, say so and the roamer can give you a few hits, but DON'T leave your cogs. The roamer can come to you so you can continue to stun and get a small toonup to tide you over til another bonus. ALWAYS be watchful for cog evidence being thrown at you. When you see a cog throwing, you must remember they ALL throw at the same time if they not stunned, so jump when a cog throws to assure you are not going to get hit. It is easy to miss a cog throw coming from the other end of the line of cogs.

I did add the bolding, so that you could find the part I am referring to.

Thanks,
Craig

[Monkey Man 2]

I left that out for size reasons did not feel I needed a long post you are right the guidelines do say what you state. But the last paragraph was all I quoted because it was all I was referring too. All I was attempting to point out is the last thing in strategy is being flexible. Which to me means if less than the guide calls for thinks they can do it let them try, if you see they are failing fill the need. When I go on a run I like to think someone is learning something. I know I do from time to time. The only way toons will grow is if you let them try.

Matt

[Dizzy]

As I'm no longer an Ambassador, please understand that what I'm writing is my personal opinion as a member.

First, the Ambassadors are not the rule-makers. Members are. You will find that those strategies weren't even written by Ambassadors. (My uber strategy was written long before I ever became an Ambassdor). Those strategies were written by members.

The boss strategy and uber battle thread lists strategies for all 4 instances (VP, CFO, CJ, and additional uber strategies). These are proven plans of winning these particular battles. Does it mean that they are the ONLY way? Absolutely not. In playing, you must sometimes adapt to your environment. I remember when law first came out and the CCG was adamant that the 5 stunner/3 panner was the "best way" to win the CJ. I was apalled that I was to be expected to follow this plan. I rarely attended CJ with the CCG and actually maxed my law suit almost entirely in Nutty River... even my key run was with 2 friends and 5 complete strangers .

After running that many cj runs with randoms, it occurred to me that though I didn't feel the 5/3 was necessary, it certainly made the most sense at that time when everyone was so new. Since that time, I've been a huge proponent of the stunner rotation because it finally "clicked" that just because the CCG is no longer new at law, law is still new to someone that attends our runs. They need to know the strategy in baby steps, just like most everyone else did. My all-suit CJ trainings focus on a stunner rotation so players can learn these baby steps.

Again, we must adapt. We must train our members in baby steps, still allow the experienced members to practice their advanced techniques, but expect the experienced members to fall back on the basic principles if there are new players that have become confused with the advanced techniques. But is it required? No.

When I joined the CCG, I was bound to some pretty basic guidelines/rules. Even those have changed in the time I've been a member. Not because Ambassadors wanted the changes, but because members discussed the situation and adapted our principles. Right now, I am bound to some pretty basic guidelines, listed in the Run Times thread. In reading those guidelines, I don't see anywhere that is listed that we must abide by the strategies set forth in a separate thread. No, those strategies are just a guideline for the newer players that have never seen the boss battle. They've never been a "requirement."

The point is, if you want something changed, then rather than demand a small group of individuals to change it, why don't you suggest the change that you want to see and then have members discuss that? But remember, no matter what ends up in the Strategy Guide, there is never a requirement to follow those strategies.

It all boils down to this... use good teamwork. If good teamwork is not displayed, then adapt in that instance, try to make the run successful for everyone, and forward the complaint to an Ambassador with screenshots.

[cputnal]

Dizzy - Great suggestions, which I have taken to heart. If there are positive changes we can make, we should. I for one will reread all the guides and see if there are places I personally would change, then send those suggestions to the Ambassadors. I would think that they should probably serve as a collection point for the ideas? It might be easier than multiple posts. I'll wait to hear from them. I appreciate your thoughtful note.

Thanks

Craig

[kyga42066]

Originally Posted by cputnal

Dizzy - Great suggestions, which I have taken to heart. If there are positive changes we can make, we should. I for one will reread all the guides and see if there are places I personally would change, then send those suggestions to the Ambassadors. I would think that they should probably serve as a collection point for the ideas? It might be easier than multiple posts. I'll wait to hear from them. I appreciate your thoughtful note.

Thanks

Craig

I am the author of the CJ guidelines as outlined in this thread. It made it as an awareness guide, not a hardfast rule of playing. When I wrote this guide, the Lawbot HQ's was just put on open for less than day or so. I spent weeks on test with many other toons trying to figure a way to consistently defeat the CJ and we found the way. So the guideline was an flexible outline of what we used and determined to be an appropriate way to defeat the CJ. Many toons are NOT CCG members and some of them still don't know about the forums. A lot of strategies were NOT developed yet and were still under development. My guide was a general guide and the key to it was flexibility so the overall effect of battling the CJ was successful. Nobody who followed the guidelines went sad by doing so. Saduality was often due to inexperience and computer problems, not the guidelines.

Please be very flexible in your battle. Fill in where you ARE NEEDED, not necessarily where you WANT to be. Use Chief Justice phrases to do this prior to scale battle so we have an idea who will be where and where you are needed. Stay AT YOUR TASK! Do not pull back to toon other toons as your main duty is to prevent cog evidence from filling their side of the scales. Do not block evidence thrown by those at the scales, please!!! The battle is won by our side of the scales hitting the bottom.

I mentioned flexibility as a key to adaptation to a battle of the various abilities of toons present. If 2 toons can handle all 8 cogs, then stepping in when one of them leaves is a great way to be flexible. We know that their evidence will be stretched out a bit, so their going for more evidence leaves 4 cogs unattended, and that is when you step in and take care of them until that toon returns. You back away when they return and you have prevented the cogs from throwing on the scalers for a short period of time. This is acceptable as a help to the battle. There are no low places of assistance in the CJ battle if you consistently help in every way you can. No ones thinks less of you.

As to the remark made to go to the scale, shrug it off and just do something profitable for the team. A boss battle is NO place to flaunt an ego of feeling superior to other toons, as there are too many variables among computers that can limit the extraordinary skills of TT players. (This is not intended as a condemning remark to anyone). Sometimes one of my computers abruptly slows down for various reasons and it limits my ordinary skill in playing, so I adapt to that and do what my computer allows me to do until the computers rights itself. That is adaptation/flexibility. It may be found that too many scalers around the several gavels would actually put the other scalers in trouble if one of the toons is knock back by toon movement and/or a gavel hit to one of them. That is something to think about because I have knocked another toon into a gavel path when I was hit by evidence. Your toons does move another toon if you hit them aburptly enough. So I would have stayed behind the stunners until one of them left, step in and hit the cogs, then step back when they return. I would drop my ego status (sic) for the sake of their ability to do what they like. I'm there to defeat the CJ like all the other toons are there for. I want my summons, new suit level or whatever. My personal pride in playing ability means nothing really if I just do something that assists the team. Suppose a scaler was losing a lot of points due to a computer problem. What should another toon do? Toon them where they play? Toon them up at the evidence stand? You decide in that CJ battle what seems best and forget all the suggestions that will be hurled at you. Your flexibility is yours to decide but do it for the good of the team.



Deputy Dynowoof

Craig - you're post was not in vain - it sparked a lot of dialogue that is acceptable as a help to understand our position in a CJ to make for a successful battle. You had tremendous courage in the OP. My post here was not specifically to you. I used your post because I was the author of the lawbot guideline.

[Requiem]

If this is being considered at this time by the members, then I also bring up the Loading of the CJ.

Is there a better way to load for the CJ to allow for younger or inexperienced toons (low suits) to be able to enjoy the battle without being overwhelmed by the difficulty level?

Also, with the recent developments, we need to think ahead a bit. Will boss be this way as well? Not knowing what's ahead, I would have to assume that they will again use the suit levels to determine difficulty, since they just started it and it works.

Maybe we should consider how we prepare and load for this battle. This would allow better control over the difficulty of the coming battle, and allow for better strategies to be formed.

This is just a thought I have had, maybe one that could help avoid alot of the troubles that plague the CJ runs?

[Deputy Monty]

Originally Posted by Waldenman

If this is being considered at this time by the members, then I also bring up the Loading of the CJ.

Is there a better way to load for the CJ to allow for younger or inexperienced toons (low suits) to be able to enjoy the battle without being overwhelmed by the difficulty level?

Against my better judgement I'm going to respond to this. First...I had to laugh at the part about being able to ENJOY the battle. From it's release on test, many did not find the CJ battle enjoyable. It was boring beyond belief and many of our great and experienced players found it so lacking in challenge they didn't bother to build their suits for quite some time.

Second..while I'd love to offer my opinion about the concern the poster raised, it's probably best to keep the discussion in this thread about strategy wording that might need to be changed.

[kyga42066]

Originally Posted by Deputy Monty

Against my better judgement I'm going to respond to this. First...I had to laugh at the part about being able to ENJOY the battle. From it's release on test, many did not find the CJ battle enjoyable. It was boring beyond belief and many of our great and experienced players found it so lacking in challenge they didn't bother to build their suits for quite some time.

Second..while I'd love to offer my opinion about the concern the poster raised, it's probably best to keep the discussion in this thread about strategy wording that might need to be changed.

Koo Doos - well said - wording, however, doesn't really change much how the battle is won, It's the TEAMWORK!

Enjoy the CJ? ? ? ? It is, perhaps, the most boring battle there is. The only skill required is for dodging gavels and cog evidence. Other than that, as Deputy Monty stated, it was a boss battle extremely boring and still is. I find the VP and CFO far more challenging because of their unpredictability of response. Let's face it, the VP is challenging to little toons because the VP can be violent sometimes in his jumping and gear throwing attacks. The CFO can be challenging due to lack of goonies thrown in the first 3 minutes of battle. Red goonies can swarm and raise a terrible havoc with toon laff.

The CJ battle is mainly avoiding evidence and gavels and constanting hitting the scales. The only challenge in the CJ is playing with extremely inexperience toons or those that want to be griefers. Enough said - I think our guidelines are sufficient for anyone to win in the CJ and then learn to adapt to new strategies as they develop and refine their CJ skills.

I, personally, like to assist younger toons in all of the battles, and with 12 toons on open, my desire to max is NOT an issue where I ignore the newbies.

Lion Heart

[cputnal]

You know - I didn't actually think so much about how the guide came into being. Certainly someone created it, as well as the other three (VP, CFO, Uber). Having Deputy Dynowoof revisit the rationale for creation was particularly enlightening and cause for reminiscing. Let me explain:

I discovered TTC the week I did my first CJ. Up to that point, my son and I had muddled along, reasonably successfully. We got his law suit. We used the game to communicate between home and the office when I was working late once his sister got the second account with Candy Sparkleface- it helped his typing skills immensely. I digress.

Anyway, knowing that we could now go to the "CJ" I googled toontown and found TTC. So I proceeded to see if there was anything written about it (the mysterious CJ.) I proceeded to read for hours. However, I didn't reach info about the CCG. I read through Lawbot HQ info, and went to the first random CJ thinking I understood it. What a joke. Going sad faster than you can say "would you like some help?" I retreated to the TTC website. Then I found the CCG website.

Well, I found the guide that had been written and tried to follow it. Not quite as bad a "sad" experience, but sad nevertheless - mostly because I managed to load with a bunch of BWs and played gavel ping pong faster than they could throw unites...

So I posted a thread in the CCG forum about my difficulties, and none other that Deputy Dynowoof posted, offered advice, and advised me that they would be looking for me (on my son's toon Twiddlespeed) at the next run.

Well, the rest is history. I haven't gone sad again in a couple of hundred CJs....

I relate all this because I note that there are still many new people to the game, as well as to the CCG. And there hopefully always will be. We can't presume that because law has been out a while, and because we find it to be, well, tedious, that everyone sees it with those same eyes. It isn't tedioius to a load of first time Bottom Feeders and Blood suckers, I assure you. They live in fear of going sad.... And we can't presume that they all have sfs to explain it. Trust me - I loaded on the first load last week with all BFs and BlS - with 7 running to the pan, I know for a fact that they were all new...lol...cost me two unites..... I painfully remembered those first couple of runs I did as I threw the unites....

With that in mind, a clear, concise guide for each boss battle is always going to be useful. Perhaps some adjustment should be made, particularly to the law guide, to note that the way of stunning may vary depending on skill level, etc. would be helpful. Keeping the notion that the safest way for a group of newer toons is the 4+ toon rotation (because it is).... Or more info about situations where there may be more gavels or cogs...

All of these should be considered, because as both Dizzy and Deputy have noted, times have changed, and the guides likely should change somewhat to accomodate those.

With that in mind, I am going to send some suggestions to the Ambassadors for consideration.

Thanks for the great commentary and the short trip down nostalgia lane...sorry to possibly bore you! (look! I also have a video of our latest vacation...as the room clears....)

Craig

[kyga42066]

Originally Posted by cputnal

Thanks for the great commentary and the short trip down nostalgia lane...sorry to possibly bore you! (look! I also have a video of our latest vacation...as the room clears....)

Craig

Actually, I will stay and watch your video providing you have punch and cake which is my favorite snack. I'm a doggie and I'm ALWAYS hungry. Oh, by the way, better put your favorite shoes in a locked closet. Shoes are my other weakness.

Deputy Dynowoof

[Silly Salty]

You are right, Craig, the guidelines need to be revised.

As for the CJ strategy, I find it really difficult to believe there should be 1 way of doing everything.

There needs to be flexibility, which, I may add, the CJ guide accounts for.

[kyga42066]

Originally Posted by Silly Salty

You are right, Craig, the guidelines need to be revised.

As for the CJ strategy, I find it really difficult to believe there should be 1 way of doing everything.

There needs to be flexibility, which, I may add, the CJ guide accounts for.

I don't really understand why the guidelines should be changed. I'm not agin it, don't get me wrong. If we are talking about newbies to the CJ battle, then some of the techniques that we presently use are definitely beyond the newbies understanding. I know that newbies that have gone with an average amount of experience are seeing the guidelines being worked efficiently with a moderate amount of flexibility.

This notion is not somethng of a nostalgia to me as I wrote the guidelines. There isn't a pride in me about them being used. It was the general consensus of most toons who visited that thread that there is a measured amount of flexibility to them. It was written as a minimum of battling technigues that enables a victory. I think if we change the guide too much, we are going to create confusion with toons coming up that have never experienced a CJ, on their toons or having watched another person battle in the CJ. We know that many toons get really upset with losing laff so quickly and not knowing how to compensate for it. That is why the guidelines work as they do. It gives the newbies a comfortable method of battling the CJ until they become seasoned enough to alter their method with a given amount of flexibility.

If we change the guidelines, all the new methods should be footnoted as being methods used by experienced toons. As Craig stated, having read the guidelines, he and his toons sailed through countless CJ's without saduality. He sees changes, not because the CJ changed, but because he becamed a seasoned CJ warrior. Newbies are NOT seasoned, and that is my reason for NOT modifying the document as it is. They can read the other ideas as additional battling information by amendments made below the document, but I suggest leaving the main document as it is as the starting point for newbies.

Does this make sense?

Deputy Dynowoof

[Weeb]

Originally Posted by kyga42066

Does this make sense?

Deputy Dynowoof

It sure does. We all need to learn and be comfortable with the basics before breaking them to incorporate newer, more advanced strategies. Some toons are still learning the tried and true strategies, LLKR, sounding off every cog in a set in mints, stunning 2 cogs at a time, etc. It's nice to introduce advanced strategies to the newer members but we should allow them the time to gain experience with the basics first if they are still learning. Don't get upset if a someone kills off the right-most cog when you've pulled a presentation, uses up all their foghorns early or returns to stun the same two cogs every time. They are learning and often look to the experienced toons to learn good strategies. Give 'em some patience and time to grow.