Slideshow or LL/KR

[Flippers]

New topic alert...

With the advent of the slideshow gag (aka lure level 7) comes a new, uber-friendly strategy in the VP I've learned by word of speedchat:

When the full line of skelecogs comes out in round 2, use the slideshow to lure them. Defeat only one of course.

Then, lure and defeat the newest one on the LEFT and leave the other three idle until they're the only ones remaining, then pick them off.

The word is the slideshow has been known to hold for fifteen turns. Does anyone know if it holds indefinitely? Either way, fifteen turns is longer than the usual skelecog round.

Should this be included in strategy documentaion?

[LadyZippyBoingenpretzel]

Originally Posted by Flippers McGurgle

New topic alert...

With the advent of the slideshow gag (aka lure level 7) comes a new, uber-friendly strategy in the VP I've learned by word of speedchat:

When the full line of skelecogs comes out in round 2, use the slideshow to lure them. Defeat only one of course.

Then, lure and defeat the newest one on the LEFT and leave the other three idle until they're the only ones remaining, then pick them off.

The word is the slideshow has been known to hold for fifteen turns. Does anyone know if it holds indefinitely? Either way, fifteen turns is longer than the usual skelecog round.

Should this be included in strategy documentaion?

In the past, if I recall correctly, it has been decided that too many "strategies" are overly confusing. IMO, if you have a group that you can communicate with and which AGREES to go along with something new, go for it. But in general, I would say stick to what we know. That's just my 2c, for whatever that's worth...

[Good Ol Zigzag Jabbertoon]

We have one strategy which we post, ask people to read, and expect them to follow. Lure Left Kill Right.

The purpose of this guild is to get toons on the elevator and fight the boss. When we started this we came up with LLKR because 1) it was a standard 2) it is easy to follow 3) it was the best way to get the lower laff toons though and 4) everyone running the runs had a game plan and had an idea what to expect.

Over the years there have been some great ways to battle the cogs and someone says "Hey lets use this way on the CCG runs" but true to the CCG and keeping things simple the answer has always (and should always be) no...lets continue to use the LLKR method because it works, because one standard is easy and because you can explain it to a three year old.

I understand this is something you learned by speedchat but do you think everyone that runs the VP with the CCG could? Do you think everyone that runs with the CCG reads the forums to find out our long standing strategy has changed? I don't.

If this is something that the ubers wish to use on their runs and everyone knows it then go for it. However on the open runs with the amount of toons we have running lets keep the strategy and game plan with only one strategy that we expect everyone to follow...LLKR.

Originally Posted by Flippers McGurgle

New topic alert...

With the advent of the slideshow gag (aka lure level 7) comes a new, uber-friendly strategy in the VP I've learned by word of speedchat:

When the full line of skelecogs comes out in round 2, use the slideshow to lure them. Defeat only one of course.

Then, lure and defeat the newest one on the LEFT and leave the other three idle until they're the only ones remaining, then pick them off.

The word is the slideshow has been known to hold for fifteen turns. Does anyone know if it holds indefinitely? Either way, fifteen turns is longer than the usual skelecog round.

Should this be included in strategy documentaion?

[Flippers]

The new gags change everything.

This gag has a RADICAL effect on cog behavior, and to not take take this into serious consideration and include this in at LEAST the rules of uber and small toon play would throw into question what anyone in CCG would believe is for the better of the group and its participants.

IMHO - and I would not be alone - if someone threw this gag out and someone blindly insisted on hitting the right cog, they would be making a deliberate effort to endanger any small toons in the lineup over either ignorance or refusal to "do the right thing". This may be construed as griefing if they didnt at least humor everyone else and go along with it.

This is a SIMPLE procedure and it really REALLY needs to be considered as part of the rules.

I encourage the ambassadors to look at this very simple but very very essential strategy if we care about our fellow members and want to be party to their success and not to blame for their early and unnecessary demise.

[banana brain]

Originally Posted by Flippers McGurgle

The new gags change everything.

This gag has a RADICAL effect on cog behavior, and to not take take this into serious consideration and include this in at LEAST the rules of uber and small toon play would throw into question what anyone in CCG would believe is for the better of the group and its participants.

IMHO - and I would not be alone - if someone threw this gag out and someone blindly insisted on hitting the right cog, they would be making a deliberate effort to endanger any small toons in the lineup over either ignorance or refusal to "do the right thing". This may be construed as griefing if they didnt at least humor everyone else and go along with it.

This is a SIMPLE procedure and it really REALLY needs to be considered as part of the rules.

I encourage the ambassadors to look at this very simple but very very essential strategy if we care about our fellow members and want to be party to their success and not to blame for their early and unnecessary demise.

HUH?

If I am reading this right you are saying is that by using the level seven lure and then the other toons following LLKR is griefing in your book? Exactly why would you say this?

If I use level seven lure (on my big toon and especially my uber) I do not expect any deviation from the standard LLKR strategy of the CCG. I could care less that the lure will last longer than goggles, although that is an awesome thing. My main concern is that the cogs get lured and we take them out one at a time following LLKR.

I agree with Zig (wow there is an awful lot of that going on LOL). The CCG is to avoid shuffle, first and foremost. Then, once everyone is on board LLKR is simple and easy to understand for everyone on the team. Let's try to remember, this is a kids game and kids (some as young as six) do show up for the CCG runs. Let's keep it simple just for the kids (and us big kids) that play this game When followed, LLKR works best for all toons and gives every toon the best chance to survive the cogs and skeles. And who is to say that anyone would have level seven lure in their gag bag or is willing to use it? Are you suggesting that we check out everyones gags before boarding the elevator to see who does and who does not have this gag? To me that does not follow the guidelines of the guild. We get on the elevator with any toon, any laff and any gag and stay on, even if the whole team is sporting cupcakes and squirt flowers. I do not wish to start clicking on everyones gags to see what they have and then try to sort out who does and does not have level seven gags. I think your "what if" strategy would be confusing and, IMO, would complicate and confuse everyone. I've been a memeber of the CCG for quite some time now. We were amazingly successful prior to level seven gags by following LLKR and we will continue to have the same success rate even if a level seven gag is never used.

[LadyZippyBoingenpretzel]

Level seven gags change things only if we grow to count on them, which in my book is a huge mistake. I must strongly agree with what has already been said here.

Let me give you an example - my 8 year old son comes to CCG runs. He has a 66 laff toon with maxed throw (and squirt, since last night), safe, aoogah, pixie dust. Working LOM to get his lure. I first let him go on CCG runs with me so I could supervise his play, which, as you might imagine, is that of a typical 8 year old (imagine THAT!). He is now comfortable going without me and I am comfortable letting him. It took me a lot of time to convince him that LLKR was the way to play with CCG and why (for his own protection as much as anything else). He is conditioned to not even bring sound to a CCG run (I did not order this - he came to that conclusion on his own). He is so conditioned to that, he didn't bring any to the P&P run last night. I forgot to tell him to bring what he wanted . My point is that he is a LLKR guy! When others veer from this strategy it is terribly confusing for him! I tried to tell him to also follow the bigger toons but when they go off all willy nilly (in his eyes) it throws the entire thing into a shambles for him. Do you have children? If not, you may not understand how this could be. You may be thinking, well, he should not go in VP then. WHY NOT?? It's a kids' game! He is a CCGer. I don't know if he knows there ARE other ways to go to VP. If he wants to go he asks me when the next run is. He is NOT going to be able to process different methods of strategy - and it is unfair for us to ask him to!

By the way - he is old enough to understand the little comments made by other toons. So when someone asks if he's new here, or says "hello?" he knows they are not being friendly, and it hurts him. That's one reason I get up on this soapbox so often, and will continue to. At least MY son has a mom who will explain things to him. Think before you hurt a child in a CHILD'S GAME!!!

On the flip side, while he knows and mostly appreciates LLKR, he also has a typical 8 year old tendency to do the unexpected. He may kill the level one in the middle without even thinkig about it. He adores his new wedding cake and geyser and wants to use them. So sorry, but I am not going to dictate his every move in a kids' game. And to label either one of us griefers for that is ludicrous.

It seems that lately we're being asked to remember particular individual preferences for an awful lot of toons! Sorry, while I care very deeply about everyone getting through the battle, I just can't do that - and I am WILLING to at least try. I personally find your words overly harsh and if you stick by them would say they are extremely offensive. I plan to stick to LLKR so I am purposefully griefing in your book? No, thank you! This is not what I'm looking for! And people wonder why the VP has lost so much of its charm for so many.

Edit: I just noticed your heading. Blinders? I think not.

[McHaggis]

Originally Posted by Flippers McGurgle

The new gags change everything.

This gag has a RADICAL effect on cog behavior, and to not take take this into serious consideration and include this in at LEAST the rules of uber and small toon play would throw into question what anyone in CCG would believe is for the better of the group and its participants.

IMHO - and I would not be alone - if someone threw this gag out and someone blindly insisted on hitting the right cog, they would be making a deliberate effort to endanger any small toons in the lineup over either ignorance or refusal to "do the right thing". This may be construed as griefing if they didnt at least humor everyone else and go along with it.

This is a SIMPLE procedure and it really REALLY needs to be considered as part of the rules.

I encourage the ambassadors to look at this very simple but very very essential strategy if we care about our fellow members and want to be party to their success and not to blame for their early and unnecessary demise.

Flippers that career in the diplomatic corps is definately not for you (Me either before you say :P ).

I was on the run with you which I think spawns this new topic; it was my toon which threw out the presentation after you shouted at us for something we didn't do right on the first skele < whatever that was>. Both the presentation and a pair of goggles hit and so we ended up with a very lured set of cogs.

You obviously were aware of the potential of the new gag and wanted to keep killing the new cog. For a 3 hander, two of whom were high laff 118 and 128 and one er not, it clearly was a safer option for the lowerish laffer to do so, and its what we settled down to do. Sorry to PRW? (I think) for the less than diplomatic way this was communicated. I wish I had "trust me" or "dont worry" rather than simply disagreeing with you request to choose a different cog. I apologise if I was rude in doing so. It certainly was not my intention.

Originally Posted by banana brain

When followed, LLKR works best for all toons and gives every toon the best chance to survive the cogs and skeles.

I am torn on the new gags. I agree that LLKR has stood the guild well for long before I ever showed up and that keeping it simple has real benefits. I also believe that, in appropriate circumstances*, we should not leave common sense behind us in the pit in a legalistic approach to LLKR. In some circumstances it is not the safest course to give every toon the best chance to survive.

Originally Posted by banana brain

We were amazingly successful prior to level seven gags by following LLKR and we will continue to have the same success rate even if a level seven gag is never used.

I agree 100%. If the seven's stay in the bag or are used like other group lures then our success rate will, in all liklihood, remain just as before. To do so in all circumstances, however is to ignore the potential of the new gags to improve the prospects of success. This is especially so for teeny laffers (who can't take a big hit, and if lure misses in the skeles will go back to the PG if they don't jump or unless a "cogs miss" has been played.) The presentation gag, if it hits, gives the potential for not having to rely on any further lures hitting period.

Our strategy guide has a section on playing with ubers. Is it worth at least considering a section on use of the presentation gag? Things move on and we adapt to new circumstances. When was the last time you saw anyone rigidly LLKR the 1st HW12 flanked by CC1s in the cog round?

We have one Rule - No shuffling. Everything else is gravy. Guidance is just that; not rules. That said, If someone adheres to LLKR when Purrloined would rather hit the new cog rather than the presentationally lured set, he will certainly NOT consider this to be griefing. Heck he is delighted to load without shuffle to have a chance to fight for the opportunity to dance.


McHaggis aka Purrloined

*appropriate circumstances are a matter of debate. They would not include, imo, where you are sided with a CC1 that is clearly not an uber, or indeed where sided with any toons who would be put in real danger of attack from 2 big cogs - (if L and R were killed). It would not include situations where you are with unfamiliar unmaxxed toons. OTOH where an uber is sided with robust and, even better, familiar toons even if not sf, most are happy to let the uber lead.

[DJ Max]

Guys, lets not twist what Flippers had proposed, or misinterpret some of his words giving them some different sense which Flippers never ment in the first place

First of all he didn't propose to change LLKR - as a basic strategy of the CCG VP fight runs (it has been discussed and agreed that it can/should not be a basic startegy during CFO or CJ fights, even involving CFO ubbers)

What Flippers proposed is: to deviate from LLKR strategy SOLELY when a new lvl7 gag, exactly: SLIDESHOW is involved.

If, as Flippers claims, it holds 15 turns (which is to be re-checked) it is obvious that cogs which are safelly lured for over 10 turns (more than any scelecog round lasts - unless one side battles all sceles of both sides) - it is more reasonable to aim the gag attack of all toons fighting on one side on the new outcoming cog, especially if they don't have enough of lvl 6 gag power.

It was discussed earlier here "...to sound or not to sound..." in cases when there is an ubber present, but all toons that he/she is sided with have maxed sound - most of the ubers agreed: "to sound!"
Which again should not be applied as a rule but rather as an exception in a particular cases.

Using slideshow and then taking out new appearing on the left cogs, and leaving "in peace" the "slided" ones - seems so much safer than deviating from LLKR in favour of sounding (which everyone agreed previously)

sticking to LLKR for any price because :

it was a standard

is not a best argument in LLKR favour. Had we've been always holding firm to something only because it was a "standard" - civilization would never progress

Even though LLKR - had always been and always remain a basic and the least failing strategy - yet flexible, not rigid approach should be applied in certain situation and circumstances especially when deviation from standard rules is dictated by a COMMON SENSE

In case of runs with ubers - new "slideshow" strategy - is obviously more secure than "traditionall" LLKR one, - as a banknote lure miss on a new cog usually means loosing one (or more) toons if an under 20/25 lp uber was present, thus "slideshow strategy" as a clause to an LLKR rule/guideline should be applied

[Black Widow Kitty]

I don't think there needs to be a change. The CCG was never about keeping ubers and other small toons alive, it was about no shuffling on the elevator regardless of suit size and LLKR as a way of increasing your rate of success.

The suggested specialized play might be useful on Uber Tuesday runs if you can get the whole team to go along.

[Flippers]

Thanks McHaggis & DJ

That's right: CCG is about no shuffling.

After that, our personal priority has always been to get everyone dancing in the end. That's why we HAVE strategy guides and a high success rate.

Diplomacy is a big chunk of my RL job. On the Internet, interpretation of tone is 9/10s of comprehension. If anyone thinks that I believe anyone unintentionally putting a out wrong gag choice is griefing, then that proves this more than anything. People who play with my toons on a regular basis are aware that such a notion isn't applicable. I will however think differently of someone deliberately working against a safer strategy.

If no one is capable of discussing a practice BEING INCREASINGLY APPLIED in our runs and look at the greater whole and its pro's and cons - and choose to carry a black+white perspective, please keep in mind that even the ambassadors have stated that there are always reasons for exceptions (such as killing the biggest cog when all are lured, or hitting more than one when there are no more new cogs).

People who have not played with me on a regular basis don't know that I play fair, use LLKR when applicable, and try to get randoms and others to follow if a small toon is in the line.

Yes, you can increase the potential of smaller laff toons going sad if the slideshow is used and you follow LLKR. Instead of thinking "oh Flippers McGurgle wrote that" look at what is happening IN THE GAME and not just in any game I am in.

The fact is, the game itself has changed:

We now have level 7 gags, which behave differently than the previous 6.

You now have to play your gags according to the cog level to get your next level 7. No more maxed overkill; gag points matter again.

We have more lower laff toons and ubers than ever before. On Tuesday nights, they may have more going to their VP runs than CCG to their own. That one evening a couple of months back when I stumbled onto their group showed this to be very much the case; no doubt higher laff regulars switch gears for the special run. This means that such a strategy is in the best interest of many more than the few posters here realize.

Attacking me is counterproductive and irrational. I'm not writing this for any personal glory, otherwise I'd still be posting victory reports. I didnt invent this strategy. I merely bring it to the table to be considered more than just another exception or unwritten law, and for it to be accepted as part of the uber strategy guide.

[Queen Violet Hulawig]

This discussion about level 7 lure reminds me of something I keep meaning to ask here. I have hardly used my level 7 gags because I am not sure exactly what they do. I have organic throw. Will my organic wedding cake take out lured level 12 cogs or still just level 11's? Squirt will take out lured level 8 cogs (I think), right? I will test my level 7 lure next time I play and see how long it holds. That's the one gag I haven't used yet (I tried to on Pup once and it missed...ugh!). Once I know what the gags can take out on their own, I will have a better idea what gags to use with them when they are chosen. With drop I would assume sound to be the way to go. Squirt and throw you'd probably want to lure, right?

One more thing...can two level 7 gags be used at the same time (for example, geyser then toontanic)? What if someone used two of the same level 7 gags (such as two geysers or two wedding cakes)?

[Dizzy]

It doesn't need to be added to any strategy. If you want to do it, you are going to do it regardless, so why would you need any strategy changed to back you? We have a hard enough time getting people to read the strategy as it is, you think they are going to read all of these ifs, ands, and buts that you are throwing out? People see over and over again that LLKR is the way to go, so they become conditioned to do so. Throwing new strategy at them mid-vp will confuse them, especially the younger players.

Like Lady Z, my son plays this game. He is a new player and hasn't vped yet, but when he does I will tell him to LLKR. My son with OCD simply can't follow any other strategy if I tell him LLKR, and he would be overwhelmed if I told him, "LLKR unless there is this kind of player and then you sound but if there is this kind of gag then you LLKL and if..."

This is a kid's game, not a "spoiled middle-aged player" game. There are plenty of those out there, so let's keep this one kid-friendly.

BTW, if you want to use your lvl 7 lure in every vp you attend, go right ahead. My lvl 7 gags are my own, and I only use them in the instance of emergency situations (ie. 2 people hitting 2 cogs with insufficient firepower) just as I do my sos cards. I keep all of my lvl 7 gags at "0 to go" so I have every single one of them when needed. When my lvl 7 gags bloom, I will use them more often, but since none of my CCG toons are growing lure, I won't be using presentation very often. Call me a griefer if you want, I couldn't care less. I've saved too many toons in boss battles for anyone to agree with you and will continue to do so with every card and unite I have in my possession.

One last thing... being level 7 doesn't guarantee it will hit. By placing your strategy in the guidelines, you are giving false hope that level 7 will hit and will hold that long. I've seen maxed goggles wake after 2 turns, so I expect nothing less from presentation.

[Dizzy]

Originally Posted by Queen Violet Hulawig

This discussion about level 7 lure reminds me of something I keep meaning to ask here. I have hardly used my level 7 gags because I am not sure exactly what they do. I have organic throw. Will my organic wedding cake take out lured level 12 cogs or still just level 11's? Squirt will take out lured level 8 cogs (I think), right? I will test my level 7 lure next time I play and see how long it holds. That's the one gag I haven't used yet (I tried to on Pup once and it missed...ugh!). Once I know what the gags can take out on their own, I will have a better idea what gags to use with them when they are chosen. With drop I would assume sound to be the way to go. Squirt and throw you'd probably want to lure, right?

One more thing...can two level 7 gags be used at the same time (for example, geyser then toontanic)? What if someone used two of the same level 7 gags (such as two geysers or two wedding cakes)?

So as not to be confused with spam, I am purposely making a separate post to help answer QVH because it is a different discussion.

Organic cakes will *not* take out level 12 cogs. Organic cakes will do 132 damage. Lure bonus is 50%, which gives 66 damage lure bonus, so organic cakes will only do 198 damage. A level 12 cog is 200 hit points.

A geyser at 105 damage can take out level 8 cogs alone or level 11 with lure bonus.

Train tracks and toontanic can both take out level 11s alone. Singing cow can take out level 8s alone.

That being said, if you throw on one cog with a wedding cake, you get the 10% multiple same gag bonus, so even a cupcake on *one* level 12 cog that is lured will take out all lured level 12 cogs. You get the multiple same gag bonus on *all* cogs from throwing *one* same type gag. So if you see someone throwing cakes on 12s, the best strategy is to have one person lure and the other should throw on one cog. It can then take out all 12s lured.

Geyser is the same... squirt behind one of the geysers, and if all cogs are lured the geyser is then at 105 (initial gag amount) + 51 (lure bonus) + 15 (multiple same gag bonus) = 171 damage. That's just the geyser itself. So if you have a row of 11s and one 12, you should then hose the 12 to make up the additional 30 damage needed to kill that 12.

Train is not eligible for the multiple gag bonus since you can't trap over another trap, so the best thing to do if you have train tracks on 12s is to sound away the remaining points. Ele will do fine.

Toontanic can receive multiple gag bonus so you can either drop on it or sound away the remaining points.

Lure's mulitple gag bonus is that it will hold longer, so using 2 lures successfully will cause the presentation to hold a REALLY long time.

Toon up is not eligible for a multiple gag bonus, and frankly if you need more than high-dive all around, you are probably looking for your contacts in the pg already.

Singing cow needs 2 eles and an oogah to kill 11s or 1 fog and 2 eles to kill 12s.

[LadyZippyBoingenpretzel]

Oh, it IS a great strategy! NO ONE ever said it wasn't. It's perfectly brilliant! Kudos to the one who came up with it! I am not being facetious here - I am being perfectly sincere.



What I have a problem with is that to even ADD it to written strategy is TOO MUCH. Too many strategies = no strategy at all. Picture it, if you will....Sicily....oops, wrong script.

So picture it....

Originally Posted by 100% FAKE CCG strategy page, not to be taken seriously in the least

In THIS situation we must use LLKR.

In THAT situation it's best to kill the BIGGEST cog first no matter where he is.

In THE OTHER situation it's imperative that we kill only the newest one first.

WHAT?? Are you new here, you imbecile?! How dare you! You griefer!! Don't you care at all?!!

/end actual facetious part



We have already had people accused of being rude, or apologizing if they sounded rude in communicating this marvelous new invention to others. If my child is going to be spoken to in that way, he may as well go to a random VP run, but not even that is my main point. However, since someone mentioned diplomacy, rudeness is not a part of that. I can pretty much promise you, along with several other parents here, that my child probably is not even seeing your words -- but if he is, he is not processing them in the way you mean them. That's just how kids are.

No one is unwilling to discuss new strategies. We are opposed to putting them in writing, at least I am, because MORE STRATEGY IS NOT BETTER STRATEGY. There's great reason behind the saying K.I.S.S (Keep it simple, stupid). It's too confusing for younger members, members who don't read this website, and for all I know, regular adult members. As I said, *I* already have enough to remember, for heaven's sake! Someone compared this with growth of a society - OMG. We are not talking about the good of society here. We are talking about a simple KID'S GAME. We're talking about a game where there is not general free communication. We're talking about taking something that ALREADY WORKS and mucking it up with more complicating situations / rules -- then labeling those who don't comply. Is this really what CCG is about? I vote no!

I re-read Flippers' second post in case I had misunderstood it. Here it is, for the sake of review. I have taken the liberty of placing some parts in bold for emphasis. Edit: Oh, forget that. I can hardly bold the whole thing. Let me take it bit by bit instead and tell you what I'm seeing here. If I'm wrong, I welcome correction.

Originally Posted by Flippers McGurgle

to not take take this into serious consideration and include this in at LEAST the rules of uber and small toon play would throw into question what anyone in CCG would believe is for the better of the group and its participants.

So we're to seriously consider this method. Fine; I think we've all considered it. I have heard NO ONE say that it's a bad or wrong way to do it. But then we have the word AND...AND include it in the RULES (what rules? We don't have any RULES) of uber play (which would be pretty much every run). Now here's where I have trouble re-wording what you say. It appears to me you're saying that failure to do so (seriously consider AND add to the "rules") means we no longer care what is for the better of the group and its participants. Please do correct me if I'm wrong, and if so you may want to think about re-wording that post. For my part, if I'm reading that right, you could not possibly be MORE wrong about my amount of caring for the group, regardless of which cog I throw the pie at.

IMHO - and I would not be alone - if someone threw this gag out and someone blindly insisted on hitting the right cog,

First -- ok, others think the way you do on this. Cool . I would love to hear from them as well. I'm simply offering a different perspective.

So, then, how would you ascertain whether the cog was being hit "blindly"? What exactly do you MEAN by "blindly"? You've had several members right here in this thread tell you that they still intend to hit the right cog. That is not "blindly". I can tell you that anyone throwing blindly will not have read ANY of our suggestions. Perhaps, judging from the context (again, please correct me if I'm wrong), you meant "knowingly". That would appear to make your assertation even worse. Those who knowingly throw at the right cog, being lured by a presentation, do not care about the better of the group. Is that a correct interpretation?

they would be making a deliberate effort to endanger any small toons in the lineup over either ignorance or refusal to "do the right thing". This may be construed as griefing if they didnt at least humor everyone else and go along with it.

Firstly: IGNORANCE is not a deliberate atempt in any scenario. Ignorance is simply lack of knowledge.

Secondly: "The right thing", in this case, is subjective. Sure, in life there is black and there is white. Please, let's not try to equate this with one of those! Come on, even YOU said this is not black and white! So why are you making it so, yourself? Do you not see that you're doing this??

Carrying on....one might assume that one throwing at the right, presentation-lured cog is ignorant, but as you and I have discussed before, not doing things YOUR (in general; by this I mean any one toon's way) way does not mean someone is IGNORANT. Refusal to do what another toon in this game sees as "The Right Thing" does not mean they are either ignorant or arrogant. Why should a toon "humor" you and go along with it? How about YOU (in general) humor THEM?

(sidebar: I can't tell you how sick I am of toons (in general) insisting that their way is THE way and everyone else is stupid or griefing! /whew, that felt good to say )

You said in a later post:

If anyone thinks that I believe anyone unintentionally putting a out wrong gag choice is griefing,

I refer you back to this:

This may be construed as griefing

Oh, OK, it makes sense now. YOU would not think they're griefing, but you're concerned that others might. Well, we can't control what others think, can we?

This is a SIMPLE procedure

I agree 100%.

and it really REALLY needs to be considered as part of the rules.

I disagree, and I've told you why. I'm not sure why you think we're unwilling to discuss this. I see many members here discussing this. I don't think anyone has attacked you.

(sidebar: I can't tell you how sick I am of people - in general - posting an idea, then accusing others of attacking them or not being willing to discuss it, when in fact they ARE discussing it, while at the same time simply not agreeing with the OP. Only rarely in any facet of life will everyone agree with us, and it's not really productive to shut down an exchange with "s/he's attacking me!&