Are These Reports Really Useful?

[Loosy Goosy]

There's a self-generating outcome that is created by these fishing reports.
If the goal is to continuously (or dynamically) chart the best places to catch
certain species, this method is flawed. Sorry guys. It would be better if the
data wasn't tainted by new submissions.

For example: Let's say Happy Fisher needs the Grand Piano Tuna. He browses
the Grand Piano Tuna Fishing Report and finds that more fishertoons catch
the Grand Piano Tuna in MM playground with the Gold Rod. So Happy Fisher
trots off to Minnie's and decides he's only going to fish in the playground until
he bags a Grand, thinking his chances are best because of the many prior
successes there. He has no desire to spend any time in the other 3 ponds
because the chart clearly shows fewer successes.

At long last, Happy Fisher bags a Grand Piano Tuna.

Then without blinking an eye, Happy Fisher comes back to the good ol' TTC
Fishing Hole and reports catching yet another Grand in MM playground,
reinforcing the illusion that the Grand is easiest in MM playground.

In order for these reports to be accurate, they should ONLY contain the data
that was posted before the report was originally published. For example,
Momo collected the information she used from previous reports and compiled it
into an ALL STAR list on 4/8/04. There was no prior knowledge of this report's
contents, so no influence existed other than Disney's basic data including
primary habitats. The last date the All Star report was edited was on 10/9/04.
For 6 months, data was added. I can gaurantee that a substantial portion of
those catches were influenced by the initial report and subsequent updates.

So, other than encouraging toons to keep trying because others have had
success, do all these reports really do any good when it comes to fishing in
the best places?

A better method of data collection is to have 4 toons with Gold Rod split up
and fish the 4 MM ponds for xx amount of hours keeping track ala the TUFS
System, and THEN study the results. This unbiased method would return cold,
hard factual data.

[Panzerfaust]

It's possible to make such an untainted list for yourself with the information you're given, though. Just subtract all the reported catches in the topic itself from the list in the first post and there you go.

Of course that means you'd also have to throw away any reports of catches at a location other than the most popular one, or in other words those catches where the influence of the existence of the topic, if any, didn't matter. You'd be unfairly skewing the result in the opposite direction if you wouldn't disregard those as well.

Now, even if you don't have a report topic to guide people in the first place, the catching results are likely skewed anyway, for all sorts of reasons. Take the advantages of playgrounds over streets for instance. More people pass by playgrounds, they can be teleported directly, they're arguably more convenient, there weren't even clerks in the streets before, etc etc. All of that makes reports about playgrounds more likely. Take the existence of information from the playing cards for another example.

Do the biases inherent in the sampling of data both before and after the creation of a report topic make this useless data? I don't believe this is the case. Because what it boils down to is that this data is really the only thing that aspiring catchers have to go on. It is, quite simply, better than having nothing. These fish are so rare that the scientific TUFS method you mention simply isn't likely to gain a significant number of catches without a substantial coordinated effort. Until such an effort materialises, I say hooray for report topics.

I do have one complaint about them though. I started mine because I was summarizing what I had found out about the Grand Piano in posts scattered throughout the forum. And I figured I might as well share that. I included links to all the posts that I had found, so that people could check out any details about those catches that I hadn't seen fit to include in my list. Who knows, maybe someone out there cares which dock was used, or in which district it was. I might consider that useless but every toon is welcome to make up his own mind. However, all those links were edited out later by a mod, along with all my personal observations in the introduction post - for the sake of uniformity. And I figure that if that's the only thing that matters for report topics then the mods may as well start all of them right now and be done with it.

[Solid Squirrlee 2]

I find Tufs to be cumbersome and a way to make fishing even more painful than it is now. The time it took me to fish 3 buckets with TUFS I could have had 6+ buckets without. I don't like how you must keep TT in such a small window in order to be able to access TUFS and record each catch not to mention entering weight and bean values. I don't know about you Loosy but it breakes up my fishing GROOVE and that I can't handle. The only way I can stand to fish is to SPEED FISH with my CD player blasting or I become bored way to fast.

As for the data listed in the threads I find it very helpful, but with any data you have to look at it with filter glasses on and take into consideration primary habitats. The Baby Grand Piano Tuna is a prime example of a fish that is not being caught in it's primary habitat of Alto Ave. I would like a list of the primary habitats as listed by Disney. Even their fishing guide is flawed because it states that the Alaskin King Crab is caught in DD yet I've never got it as a new species in DD on any of my toons. The fact that the All Star Fish has the most catches in TB would send most to that playground and further taint the stats as you have said. The new fishing update has a direct effect on the new stats being reported too. The reason behind All Star catches being high in TB is the # of Bear Acuda species (7) that must be caught so many toons spend more time in TB and catch the All Star by luck there. I'm not sure if the Offical fishing thread is listing primary habitats or locations based on catches.

I know you are the fishing king and I bow to your greatness in that respect. I think the specific Species threads need to stay as they are and open to record new catches just to keep the # of new threads asking locations of certain fish down and let us see just how difficult some of those fish are. The All Star Seems more common than the Grand or Full Moon yet, I think it is actually a higher difficulty fish to get. I say this because It seems to be caught at ramdom and by mistake more often than Toons looking for it. I have one toon that has it and it was caught in DG playground with the Bamboo rod while I was trying to get the Siamese,this same toon also got the Devil Ray in the same pond looking for the Siamese. I'll say that if I had the Star fish card I would be looking for the All Star in it's primary habitat.

[Loosy Goosy]

Originally Posted by Panzerfaust

...Of course that means you'd also have to throw away any reports of catches at a location other than the most popular one, or in other words those catches where the influence of the existence of the topic, if any, didn't matter. You'd be unfairly skewing the result in the opposite direction if you wouldn't disregard those as well.

Actually, I was in error. The posts prior to the Report data collection could
also have influenced others to copycat as well. At any rate, you would HAVE
to remove all submissions post-publication to get the most pristine result.

...what it boils down to is that this data is really the only thing that aspiring catchers have to go on. It is, quite simply, better than having nothing.

This suggests that you think the reports provide aide to those who need help
finding certain species. Exactly. Then when they do catch what they are
looking for by fishing in a pond that a Report prescribes as the best place,
they reinforce that claim by submitting their own report. No, this isn't better
than having nothing hehe. It'll continue to increase the favor for a certain
pond without an equal amount of fishing in all the others, because we all want
to go where the most success is, or rather, the most amount of claims are.

I remember back when Momo started the All Star Report and thinking that it
would be fun to watch how over time the results would end up favoring one
pond unproportionately, lol. Now these threads are stickies in this forum,
and making them such (IMNSHO) gives them much more credibility than they
can possibly possess.

[Panzerfaust]

Originally Posted by Loosy Goosy

Actually, I was in error. The posts prior to the Report data collection could
also have influenced others to copycat as well. At any rate, you would HAVE
to remove all submissions post-publication to get the most pristine result.

And why stop there

Like you say, posts pre-publication might well have been influenced too.

Just to be sure, you should perhaps just discount any report by anyone that might have ever read this forum. After all, they could've started fishing with preconceived notions, by having read anything about any particular fish in any topic..

I guess I'm trying to say that your concept of pristine results is certainly true, but would it be better/quicker/easier to discard the experiences we have and only rely on data collected in the TUFS way in this game? Well, we can't really say until that data is actually collected (by whom? When? And who is going to guarantee that the collection process is not influenced in any way?).

This suggests that you think the reports provide aide to those who need help
finding certain species. Exactly. Then when they do catch what they are
looking for by fishing in a pond that a Report prescribes as the best place,
they reinforce that claim by submitting their own report. No, this isn't better
than having nothing hehe.

Well, you could start out fishing knowing nothing at all and only relying on your own experiences. Heck, you've been fishing for so long, that might well be what you actually did.

You might also choose to ignore trading cards. I mean, how can you ever be sure that, say, the Harvest Moon just cannot be caught at Toontown Central until you've actually tried to do it - until infinity?

Personally I do feel that reading about other people's experiences is interesting if nothing else. And yes I do actually believe that you can save time by looking at the results in reports, skewed as though they may be, because my own experience confirms this. Point in case for me, the Siamese. I've fished 100s of buckets in DG playground for this fish, with several toons, and never found it. I know you like the PG for this fish but that just hasn't worked out for me. Then a friend of mine and me found it simultaneously on Elm Street (and posted about it). Now all my toons got this fish easy, and the topic is full of people who caught it in just a few buckets. I've only read very few posts by people who have difficulty getting it on Elm Street. Is it possible many toons would've caught it just as easily somewhere else? Surely. But they at least know one place where they have a pretty good shot at getting it.

[Loosy Goosy]

Oh I've definitely been entertained by the Reports, that's for sure hehe.

Like I said, the best way to test the best place to catch the Grand Piano
Tuna (as an example) is to send out equal amounts of toons to the 4 ponds
in Minnies and have them fish with the same rods for the same amount of
buckets (counting species only at the assigned pond). This way they can do
it on their own schedule.

My TUFS reference was only in regards to a third party program, not TUFS
specifically. TUFS wasn't set up to be exclusively for data collection, that is,
it didn't limit the fishertoon from going after the species he/she needed. My
test would require fishing strictly in the same pond for the same amount of
buckets. Further, the data collection would need to be easier. Something that
allows you to simply click a button that is assigned to a certain species
much easier. Perhaps a programmer with database space can step up and
design one

[fluffy tomahawk]

the reports are nice and all but I agree with loosy that the best way 2 handle this is 2 fish at all of the possible locations with different ppl catching the same amount of fish but even then you would have 2 have a lot of ppl to do that fishing to make it have any accuracy which I think is ULTRA hard 2 do. To do this you would need some sort of fishing club I think on the reports we should have a scale like every 4 catches in playgroud=1 on street but I dont think that could work with accuracy. I think the reports you cant go by but by looking at the reports and then looking at the ratio of ppl fishing at each pond you can get a good guess in my opinion.

[Batleth]

Well LG, I think you'd be the best person to organize such a venture...LOL!

Anyway, I have my cons and my pros for keeping 'em around for now. I do agree with Loosy Goosy, but seeing the amount of people asking where's the best place to catch X species has been cut by 1000 times once we created these threads. I hate to repeat myself and it was getting very annoying, let alone a lot of false info that was being spread has stopped all together. It's best for the fishing community to have them for now, even if they are annoying and misleading.

I could unsticky them, but then we'd see a hundred new threads about where to find X ultra rare species within a few weeks, once they got pushed back a page or two.

If there is enough responce to have the fishing report threads removed, then I'll do so.

[Loosy Goosy]

Originally Posted by Batleth

Well LG, I think you'd be the best person to organize such a venture...LOL!

Anyway, I have my cons and my pros for keeping 'em around for now. I do agree with Loosy Goosy, but seeing the amount of people asking where's the best place to catch X species has been cut by 1000 times once we created these threads. I hate to repeat myself and it was getting very annoying, let alone a lot of false info that was being spread has stopped all together. It's best for the fishing community to have them for now, even if they are annoying and misleading.

I could unsticky them, but then we'd see a hundred new threads about where to find X ultra rare species within a few weeks, once they got pushed back a page or two.

If there is enough responce to have the fishing report threads removed, then I'll do so.

lol, gee thanks for volunteering me

I'm surprised that turning those Reports into stickies reduced the amount
of inquiries, especially when the Official Guide [that you spent so much
time working on] already has the answers—and is not flawed (at least to
the degree the Reports are). It just seems strange to me (probably only me)
to place the same stamp of approval on the Reports as the Guide.

Maybe a Fishing Hole SUB-FORUM called The Trophy Room could contain all
of the Reports. It may actually encourage folks to participate more often in
submissions ala fishing bragging rights, and would not be exalted as gospel
on the main Fishing Hole page alongside the Guide.

I guess my initial question "So, other than encouraging toons to keep trying
because others have had success, do all these reports really do any good
when it comes to fishing in the best places?" is best answered as no. They do
just that: encourage toons to go where others have had the most luck.

Addendum: a huge chunk of the TTC community is more than likely spending
MORE TIME trying to catch certain species simply because they're marching
in lock-step with what appears to be the best place to fish, when in reality
the reports only reveal the most popular places to catch them.

[Panzerfaust]

Originally Posted by Loosy Goosy

lol, gee thanks for volunteering me

I'm surprised that turning those Reports into stickies reduced the amount
of inquiries, especially when the Official Guide [that you spent so much
time working on] already has the answers—and is not flawed (at least to
the degree the Reports are). It just seems strange to me (probably only me)
to place the same stamp of approval on the Reports as the Guide.

What data is the Guide based on exactly? What is the difference in methodology between data collection for the guide and the reports that makes the Guide less flawed?

Addendum: a huge chunk of the TTC community is more than likely spending
MORE TIME trying to catch certain species simply because they're marching
in lock-step with what appears to be the best place to fish, when in reality
the reports only reveal the most popular places to catch them.

Why is that more than likely? Isn't it likely that they'd spend more time if they had to search out the best place to catch every fish themselves?

[Loosy Goosy]

Originally Posted by Panzerfaust

What data is the Guide based on exactly? What is the difference in methodology between data collection for the guide and the reports that makes the Guide less flawed?

Basic statements of where species can be caught, combined with Disney's
rarity information and some of Batleth's suppositions on rarity from his
observations of reports to the Fishing Hole in general (in parenthesis in his
Guide). Recognizing that some of Disney's data seems to be flawed and that
Batleth's suppositions are not scientific, I'm not entirely comfortable with the
rarity information, but the rest of the guide is rock-solid, useful information.

If someone asks "Where's the best place to catch a such-and-such?",
they can be directed (100% of the time) straight to the Official Guide. Why?
Because the Reports only reflect pond popularity in the absence of balanced,
scientific testing, whereas the areas mentioned in the Guide are accurate
(albeit generically). If someone asks "Where is everyone catching the such-
and-such?", the Reports can be used ONLY because they answer THAT
question, lacking any comparative value to other ponds in the respective
playgrounds, thereby disqualifying them from being used to determine the
BEST places to fish.

Originally Posted by Panzerfaust

Isn't it likely that they'd spend more time if they had to search out the best place to catch every fish themselves?

No, lol. Especially not with street clerks now. At any rate, the Grand Piano
Report says there have been 8 catches in MM playground and 2 on Alto, the
fish's primary habitat. 7 of the 8 Grands caught in the PG were from before
the street clerks were added (9/3/04), so right off the bat we know there
was not an equal amount of toons hoofing it to the Alto pond or partnering
up to fish there. My claim is made manifest when you look at the time from
the first Grand catch to the day the street clerks were added. Once reports
came in that the Grand can be caught in the PG, nobody bothered going to
Alto. The 2 from Alto were caught after the street clerk addition. We're
finally getting reports from that pond—BUT—we still lack (by a HUGE margin) a
balanced, scientific chart that can reveal the BEST place to catch the Grand,
and prove once and for all whether or not Disney's claim of primary habitat for
that species is as flawed as some of the others. I'm thinking there are only a
few of them that are flawed, but again, we won't know until it's tested.
Meanwhile, the Official Guide is more than adequate.

What the Reports do for sure (especially with so many youngin's reading
them) is deceive toons into thinking the pond with the most catches is the
best. Rather, all it does is endorse TTC's most popular pond for that species.
What's more, it discourages them from even trying elsewhere. Why would
they want to? The reports are nothing more than endorsements for popular
ponds. They most certainly do not reveal anything remotely related to the
best places to fish.

Perhaps all that's needed is a statement at the top of each report in bold or
another color, such as:

This report is not intended to reveal the BEST place to catch the Such-and-Such. Now that we have street clerks, we encourage you to hunt for the Such-and-Such in ALL of the ponds where they live, including their primary habitats, and report your findings here. To find out where the Such-and-Such lives, please visit the

Official Guide.

Just cut-in-paste and replace Such-and-Such with the particular species
Report name and you're good to go. At least then it will be clear what the
reports are there for.

[Panzerfaust]

Originally Posted by Loosy Goosy

Basic statements of where species can be caught, combined with Disney's
rarity information and some of Batleth's suppositions on rarity from his
observations of reports to the Fishing Hole in general (in parenthesis in his
Guide). Recognizing that some of Disney's data seems to be flawed and that
Batleth's suppositions are not scientific, I'm not entirely comfortable with the
rarity information, but the rest of the guide is rock-solid, useful information.

Well, it's still information that is only assumed to be correct based on what Disney has told us, and augmented with the actual fishing experience of both Batleth himself and other posters where such additions seem useful. We can't say for sure that it's 100% correct - but it is still generally considered to be useful information.

So useful in fact that it is made to stand out quite distinctly in the stickies list with its 'The Official Toontown Central Fishing Guide' title.

If someone asks "Where's the best place to catch a such-and-such?",
they can be directed (100% of the time) straight to the Official Guide. Why?
Because the Reports only reflect pond popularity in the absence of balanced,
scientific testing, whereas the areas mentioned in the Guide are accurate
(albeit generically).

I'm still unsure why the absence of balanced, scientific testing means that the data that *is* available should be hidden. Or why the Reports should be held to a higher standard than the Guide, which is also based on anecdotal information. The Reports don't even claim any authority on any subject - unlike the Guide - but merely serve as a central place where catches of particular fish can be reported.

No, lol. Especially not with street clerks now. At any rate, the Grand Piano
Report says there have been 8 catches in MM playground and 2 on Alto, the
fish's primary habitat. 7 of the 8 Grands caught in the PG were from before
the street clerks were added (9/3/04), so right off the bat we know there
was not an equal amount of toons hoofing it to the Alto pond or partnering
up to fish there.

Exactly, there's a lot of theorising that can be done if you read the data in the reports closely. They tell you what was caught where and when and everyone is free to use that data or not, and to interpret it in any way they can come up with.

Meanwhile, the Official Guide is more than adequate.

But is it really? The Guide has been around for a long time, yet it hasn't stemmed the huge torrent of posts asking for recommendations.

The fact that the reports were spawned in the first place makes it clear that there is a huge demand for information that is more specific than what the Guide aims to provide.

For lack of data collected in a controlled scientific manner, people's experiences are at least something to go on.

What the Reports do for sure (especially with so many youngin's reading
them) is deceive toons into thinking the pond with the most catches is the
best.

I disagree that the Reports deceive. They state cold, hard, factual data. Read the (standardised, bleh) intro text and you'll see that they do not claim to be anything more than a 'just the facts' list of catches.

Perhaps all that's needed is a statement at the top of each report in bold or
another color, such as:

Just cut-in-paste and replace Such-and-Such with the particular species
Report name and you're good to go. At least then it will be clear what the
reports are there for.

Sounds good to me.

[ZZ Fuzzymonkey]

Amen!
Let's give it a try.....Full Moon Fish Report

Nice idea Loosy. It's nice to be able follow a frank discussion without it degenerating into arguments the way some threads do.

[Batleth]

Originally Posted by Loosy Goosy

lol, gee thanks for volunteering me

Anytime, old friend..LOL!

Originally Posted by Loosy Goosy

I'm surprised that turning those Reports into stickies reduced the amount
of inquiries, especially when the Official Guide [that you spent so much
time working on] already has the answers—and is not flawed (at least to
the degree the Reports are). It just seems strange to me (probably only me)
to place the same stamp of approval on the Reports as the Guide.

Most people seem to think that the fishing guide is too vague on locations for the ultra rares. Well, I've kept it generalized for the reason, but it does state the same locations as the fishing report threads. Most just don't seem to want to listen to it can be caught in any pond and just go fish..lol.

Originally Posted by Loosy Goosy

Maybe a Fishing Hole SUB-FORUM called The Trophy Room could contain all
of the Reports. It may actually encourage folks to participate more often in
submissions ala fishing bragging rights, and would not be exalted as gospel
on the main Fishing Hole page alongside the Guide.

Then what would we discuss in the fishing hole? Things have been pretty slow around here lately.

Originally Posted by Loosy Goosy

I guess my initial question "So, other than encouraging toons to keep trying
because others have had success, do all these reports really do any good
when it comes to fishing in the best places?" is best answered as no. They do
just that: encourage toons to go where others have had the most luck.

Addendum: a huge chunk of the TTC community is more than likely spending
MORE TIME trying to catch certain species simply because they're marching
in lock-step with what appears to be the best place to fish, when in reality
the reports only reveal the most popular places to catch them.

That about sums it up.

Originally Posted by Panzerfaust

I disagree that the Reports deceive. They state cold, hard, factual data. Read the (standardised, bleh) intro text and you'll see that they do not claim to be anything more than a 'just the facts' list of catches.

I created the beginning test for all fishing report threads. It hardly tells the truth about them, but rather asking people nicely to post where they caught their ultra rare species. The fishing guide is based on actual catches. All data that went into it was either from Disney's release notes or had a screen shot backing up their claim. The fishing report threads could be full of falsified claims since a picture is not required to make a reported catch. I'm possitive that there are falsified claims on the fishing report threads, but it would take too long to try to disprove them at this point if it was even possible.

One thing I would love to see is if the people that control the fishing report threads to do some research and try to find all possible catches of their species in question to be added to their lists. For example; Loosy Goosy and Dizzy Wonderdoodle have every species, but they are not on every list. I say the fishing report owners need to go back through the threads and pull out every catch that was stated in the fishing hole about the species that are maintaining. It's the only way they'd even come close to being accurate and what I'd hoped to gain by their creation. Momo did this and I thought it was great and had hoped that future fishing report threads would do this same thing. This gave some credibility to them as some reports that were being listed were before we had a biosed opinion as to where to fish for that species in question since most of the ultra rares are amoung the first species released on TT.

[ZZ Fuzzymonkey]

Originally Posted by Batleth

One thing I would love to see is if the people that control the fishing report threads to do some research and try to find all possible catches of their species in question to be added to their lists. For example; Loosy Goosy and Dizzy Wonderdoodle have every species, but they are not on every list.

Consider that partially rectified. Loosy is now a part of the Full Moon Fish thread. Dizzy has posted that he caught it (see Fish i need put in order of rarity page 2) But the details were listed in the guide updates thread, which I now understand has been deleted. That might have been a good source of info for those who choose to update their threads. None the less, I shall endeavor to search out the masses that have not had their names recorded for posterity sake.