In defense of toons who don't help.

[Kehawin]

Anyone who knows me, or has played with any of my toons, knows that I don't have a problem helping lower laff toons who are working on their tasks. By saying I don't have a problem with it does NOT mean I want to do it all the time though.

I am basically a loner. I would rather go into the factory with one or two friends I know well than to join a group of 3 people I don't really know. Now that I need 5500 merits on 4 toons, I spend most of my HQ time doing long runs. I have a handful of friends who I tend to go through the factory with.

At least once a day, usually once an hour, a mid- or low- laff toon helps himself to the empty slot in the elevator. I call these toons stowaways. You can separate the stowaways from other toons by the fact that instead of "Can you help me?" or "Would you like some help?" or even "Mind if I join you?" (a purchased speed chat phrase), they say "Lets go!" or "Let's go in the elevator!" or even, most annoying, "Follow me." Or they simply follow you in, even to the point of tp'ing to you to catch you.

Toons who are doing the merit grind with the same friends generally have a rhythm. They aren't usually working gags at all, they know what level cogs are in each room, and know what gags their friends DONT have. I pretty much know which gag each of my friends will choose in each room and I consistently choose the same gag too... and we defeat the cogs with no damage unless a gag misses.

If a gag DOES miss, we usually won't toon up until the center silo, if we can help it.

Hey, if I am in the mood, or if you seem like a particularly nice toon, I will help you and none of the "rhythm" matters. I can take myself and a small toon through with no real problems. But when a stowaway comes along, it is a different story. I get irritated when a toon jumps into our elevator just because we are big toons and don't have a full elevator.

So yes, if a toon does stowaway (and please re-read the difference between asking for help and stowing away before flaming me) I will generally ignore that they are there. And if they are not actively helping defeat the cogs, I will even pretend *I* am not there.

I do realize that this would be considered mean to a kid playing. HOWEVER, in defense of that, I have a 9 year old who UNDERSTANDS not to jump on an elevator with unknown toons unless asking permission first. I am compassionate to children, but I do think that if a parent really wants to help protect the child's feelings, they will play WITH the child and help teach them social consideration such as asking if someone wants company and explaining to them that certain behavior is not appreciated by all players - that if they want to play a certain way, they should seek others who play the same way.

So, basically what I am trying to say is,

-If you want to join a group, ask
-If they say no thank you, or sorry I'm helping a friend, don't be inconsiderate - find someone else willing to help you
-Don't insist the group do things your way. You will probably cause the opposite reaction
-If you ignore the above suggestions and jump on anyway, expect one of these things:
*a shuffle
*no help (including no toon up till it would normally be used)
*other toons tp'ing out



Like I said at the beginning of the post, I will help toons if I am in the mood and I don't mind if one of my friends decides to help someone.

But I don't think that anyone deserves to be forced to play a certain way. And because of that, I think if someone isn't playing the way you do, you should just find someone who does, without telling that person they stink because they aren't playing your way.

[Bunny Summers]

Originally Posted by Kehawin

I do realize that this would be considered mean to a kid playing. HOWEVER, in defense of that, I have a 9 year old who UNDERSTANDS not to jump on an elevator with unknown toons unless asking permission first. I am compassionate to children, but I do think that if a parent really wants to help protect the child's feelings, they will play WITH the child and help teach them social consideration such as asking if someone wants company and explaining to them that certain behavior is not appreciated by all players - that if they want to play a certain way, they should seek others who play the same way.

First of all, I'm not flaming you in any way. I'd just like to bring up a few points you may not have considered.....

Unfortunately, not everyone does play the game with their children and because of this, it's important to realize what you're saying is you're holding everyone in the game to your standards. Realizing this isn't very...well...realistic. Not everyone is the same as you. Some parents use the internet to keep their kids quiet for awhile. Some parents aren't there while their kids are at home. Some parents don't have time or even realize there IS an etiquette in the game. I personally hold no preconceived notions of "etiquette" in the game. I don't consider how I would treat someone the same as someone would treat me. I would like to THINK people would, but that's just not always the case. And I total agree with what you're saying, I just don't think it's realistic and not very empathetic to other people's real life situations and their moods, feelings, etc.

Originally Posted by Kehawin

So, basically what I am trying to say is,

-If you want to join a group, ask
-If they say no thank you, or sorry I'm helping a friend, don't be inconsiderate - find someone else willing to help you
-If you ignore the above suggestions and jump on anyway, expect one of these things:
*a shuffle
*no help (including no toon up till we would normally use it)
*other toons tp'ing out
-Don't insist the group do things your way. You will probably cause the opposite reaction


Like I said at the beginning of the post, I will help toons if I am in the mood and I don't mind if one of my friends decides to help someone.

How are other toons expected to know when you're in a helpful mood and when you'd rather just be left alone? How are they supposed to know that you want them to ask you before entering the elevator? How are they supposed to know that you want to work things according to a rhythm? Given the restrictions of Speedchat, I don't see how that's possible for them to know. And miscommunications breed misunderstandings i.e. because they can't communicate with you, they may not understand that this is what you expect of them.

Originally Posted by Kehawin

But I don't think that anyone deserves to be forced to play a certain way. And because of that, I think if someone isn't playing the way you do, you should just find someone who does, without telling that person they stink because they aren't playing your way.

I think the same way but there is a contradiction in your post. You are first telling people if they don't play the way you want they can expect a shuffle, no help (including withholding toon up), they cannot use their gags they'd like to work and/or you teleporting out. So you don't think anyone deserves to be forced a certain way but play your way or you'll be made go sad, not be allowed to use your gags, ditched or shuffled out? I do believe you should play how you want to play, but I don't believe you should expect EVERYONE to play how you play, either OR expect them to figure out how you play if you don't know them.

Also, I understand what you're trying to say, honestly. I just don't see how to hold someone accountable given the fact that not everyone you meet in the game is going to be on these boards and KNOW exactly what your expectations are of them.

[Kehawin]

Originally Posted by Bunny Summers

Unfortunately, not everyone does play the game with their children and because of this, it's important to realize what you're saying is you're holding everyone in the game to your standards... Not everyone is the same as you. Some parents use the internet to keep their kids quiet for awhile. Some parents aren't there while their kids are at home. Some parents don't have time or even realize there IS an etiquette in the game.

Which is part of the point I am trying to make. I do have empathy for children whose parents use the TV or PC or game console as a babysitter. That part of my post was directed at the parents whose reaction is always "Be nice to my child, he doesn't know any better". I am not an all-or-nothing thinker, I do know there are parents out there who work on these things, only to see their child get hurt. This post is not trying to flame anyone, but trying (yet again?) to get across to the limited number of toons on this forum who expect "big" toons to help them just because they are big.

I just don't think it's realistic and not very empathetic to other people's real life situations and their moods, feelings, etc. How are other toons expected to know when you're in a helpful mood and when you'd rather just be left alone? How are they supposed to know that you want them to ask you before entering the elevator? How are they supposed to know that you want to work things according to a rhythm? Given the restrictions of Speedchat, I don't see how that's possible for them to know.

In my case (and I can only speak for myself), all they need to do is ask. And yes, Speedchat works. "Can you help me?" will either get a response of "what's up?" (meaning it depends on what you want) "OK" (meaning I have nothing else going on) or "Sorry I can't/I'm helping a friend". I am sure there is some room for miscommunication there, but not much lol. I guess I could just say "No", but I can't seem to make myself be that rude.

It's not so much about people asking for help as not asking for help and assuming they can jump on just cause there is an empty space (or in some cases, even though there is no empty space). Or not taking "sorry, no" as an answer and moving on.

I think the same way but there is a contradiction in your post. You are first telling people if they don't play the way you want they can expect a shuffle, no help (including withholding toon up), they cannot use their gags they'd like to work and/or you teleporting out. So you don't think anyone deserves to be forced a certain way but play your way or you'll be made go sad, not be allowed to use your gags, ditched or shuffled out? I do believe you should play how you want to play, but I don't believe you should expect EVERYONE to play how you play, either OR expect them to figure out how you play if you don't know them.

I VERY RARELY let someone go sad. That is reserved in my mind for the toons who are not trying to help at all, waiting to join battle till center, passing all the time, etc. I am referring to other toons who have their own opinions as to whether or not a low laff toon should even be in HQ at all. I guess I didn't make it clear in my OP that those options are what can be expected in general, not necessarily from me.

The most important point I wanted to make in my post has been said before: Just as non-maxed toons "are paying customers too" and therefore have a right to play the way they want (going into HQ at XX laff to work gags even without a task, or any of the other various activities that cause such chaos between the different camps), Maxed toons have a right as well, and neither has an obligation to play the other person's way. AND neither deserves to be told they stink for their choice. Most importantly, if you don't play the same as another toon FIND SOMEONE ELSE TO PLAY WITH!

... not everyone you meet in the game is going to be on these boards and KNOW exactly what your expectations are of them.

Very true. But just like any other post on these boards, I needed to get this off my chest. Thanks for listening. I remember being a "only maxed toons belong in HQ" player, and reading these posts helped change my mind.

[Fluffy Frecklefoot]

I'll probably be accused of splitting hairs but I just want to point out that it's likely that there are many parents who don't take a big interest in Toontown but that doesn't mean that they are using the internet as a babysitter or being neglectful. Toontown was designed to be played by children as young as 8. I would take this to mean that it was designed to be played by children this age without parental involvement. When I purchased the game for my kids (July 2003) I looked it over, made sure that it was a safe 'virtual' environment (no open chat), watched them play it for a while every now and again and that was it. To me it seemed harmless enough and no different than allowing them to play any other video game for an hour after their homework was done. That's hardly using the internet as a babysitter!

When cog HQ came out the tears and frustration started. That's when I started to take more of an interest in what was going on. There seems to be somewhat of a problem with the way that area of the game was integrated into the rest of Toontown, to say the least. My 2 younger children soon tired of the nastiness and went back to other areas of the game and eventually stopped playing altogether. The oldest figured it out after much trial and error (this was after I had started playing but before I had any real clue about how to play) and became a Hollywood before he too got tired of Toontown. It took quite a while for me to be much help to the kids.

After I had found my feet in the game and had started the big merit runs I didn't forget about my own children's experience. Whenever I would run into a "stowaway" I would treat them as if they were my own child trying to complete the dreaded Daisy Garden task. I know lots of people talk about griefers and misguided toons who "don't belong" in HQ and there's some truth to what they have to say but I bet that true griefers are few and far between. It seems so much more likely that the "stowaways" are just kids. Certainly no one has any right to tell anyone else how they should or shouldn't play. For myself, I always just thought "it's only a few minutes of my time" and it wasn't a big deal to take them but that's just me, and I don't even play anymore.

[Bunny Summers]

Originally Posted by Fluffy Frecklefoot

I'll probably be accused of splitting hairs but I just want to point out that it's likely that there are many parents who don't take a big interest in Toontown but that doesn't mean that they are using the internet as a babysitter or being neglectful. Toontown was designed to be played by children as young as 8. I would take this to mean that it was designed to be played by children this age without parental involvement. When I purchased the game for my kids (July 2003) I looked it over, made sure that it was a safe 'virtual' environment (no open chat), watched them play it for a while every now and again and that was it. To me it seemed harmless enough and no different than allowing them to play any other video game for an hour after their homework was done. That's hardly using the internet as a babysitter!

I didn't say or infer that everyone who doesn't take an interest in the game and what they do online are being neglectful and I don't think Kewahin meant that either. I said, instead, that some parents DO use the internet/computer as a tool to keep their kids quiet for awhile (as a babysitter, as Keh said). It's true, because I've seen it. If people use TV that way, surely they'd use the computer for it to. And I'm not referring to those who put on a movie for a couple of hours so they can get things done. But there are kids who sit on the computer ALL day long, or at least a great part of the day.

But I do take an interest in what my kids do in the game, even though they aren't subjected to what other MMORPG's might have as potential danger (i.e. open chat). But instead, I'd rather make sure that they're "playing nice", especially interacting with other people. IMO, just because it CAN be played without adult supervision, doesn't mean that it should...that's just me. I feel that if I don't teach them how to interact in the game, then they could be disrupting other people's gameplay, too. If I wouldn't let them play a board game without knowing the rules and what's expected of them, why would I let them play an online game w/o knowing the rules and what's expected of them? Again, don't take offense.

[Fluffy Frecklefoot]

Originally Posted by Bunny Summers

I didn't say or infer that everyone who doesn't take an interest in the game and what they do online are being neglectful and I don't think Kewahin meant that either. I said, instead, that some parents DO use the internet/computer as a tool to keep their kids quiet for awhile (as a babysitter, as Keh said). It's true, because I've seen it. If people use TV that way, surely they'd use the computer for it to. And I'm not referring to those who put on a movie for a couple of hours so they can get things done. But there are kids who sit on the computer ALL day long, or at least a great part of the day.

But I do take an interest in what my kids do in the game, even though they aren't subjected to what other MMORPG's might have as potential danger (i.e. open chat). But instead, I'd rather make sure that they're "playing nice", especially interacting with other people. IMO, just because it CAN be played without adult supervision, doesn't mean that it should...that's just me. I feel that if I don't teach them how to interact in the game, then they could be disrupting other people's gameplay, too. If I wouldn't let them play a board game without knowing the rules and what's expected of them, why would I let them play an online game w/o knowing the rules and what's expected of them? Again, don't take offense.

A typical 8 year old can read quite well and should be able to figure out the basic rules of Toontown. Figuring things out for themselves can be very satisfying for kids and give them a sense of accomplishment, even if it's just in a video game. As far as ensuring that kids play nice, it is possible that many non-playing parents, realizing that Toontown is a game where toons interact, monitor their children's behavior (at least I did, even before I played.) I think what I objected to was the inference that either parents were heavily involved with Toontown or they were totally neglectful, two extremes. It seems likely that lots of parents could be in the middle, keeping a watchful eye on what their kids are doing, limiting their kids' time on the computer, but not necessarily playing the game themselves.

[Laurianna Cat]

Originally Posted by Kehawin

I am basically a loner. I would rather go into the factory with one or two friends I know well than to join a group of 3 people I don't really know. Now that I need 5500 merits on 4 toons, I spend most of my HQ time doing long runs. I have a handful of friends who I tend to go through the factory with.

At least once a day, usually once an hour, a mid- or low- laff toon helps himself to the empty slot in the elevator. I call these toons stowaways. You can separate the stowaways from other toons by the fact that instead of "Can you help me?" or "Would you like some help?" or even "Mind if I join you?" (a purchased speed chat phrase), they say "Lets go!" or "Let's go in the elevator!" or even, most annoying, "Follow me." Or they simply follow you in, even to the point of tp'ing to you to catch you.

You seem to be forgetting this game is an MMORPG.

Buildings have been deliberately constructed to be fought by groups.

If you choose to go against the grain, and don't want to fight with other people, that's a fine personal choice. You can easily create that situation, especially dealing with the factory by going to a sparsely populated server and inviting your friends to t-port, or even usually just going over to the side entrance, which bears no hardship since you're doing full runs anyway.

It's trickier with regular buildings as they're randomly generated on each server, but the factory is in the exact same place everytime everywhere.

I'm basically just not fond of how you feel you own all four slots in an elevator because you're inside it. If you don't want others with you, don't be where other people are, it's FAR too easy of a fix to play the game as you like it instead of being angry with people because you want to play the game differently than the dev's intentions, and they do.

There's a countdown on the elevator. There's usually not the time for the politeness you're demanding, and I think that's deliberate. By the time someone asked and got a response, usually the doors would have closed if people were already in the elevator. We meet new people and get to know them best during a battle, elevators are in part forced socialization, again, that pesky MMORPG aspect .

That "stowaway" you refer to, is just someone trying to play the game as designed, it's not fair for you to consider them taking from you. There are some definite exceptions, people intentionally being jerks, but I've seen them more from high laffers, than low-mid. Just yesterday we had someone join us named (something) McMooch, and he did just that. He came into the factory, and didn't show up to a single battle. Never lost a laugh point, didn't even show up for the foreman, I haven't a clue what he was doing. He was a 100+ laffer, so whatever it was, it was intentional.

That being said, I do understand prefering to be with your friends doing your normal routine. I go through those stages as well, most of us do. It's just when I feel like playing my own game, my own way, I just get out the public area on a sparse server to do it.

Also, when I had my evil Daisy Garden task, I chose to whisper to a high laffer asking for help, but we were out of the elevator so there was time for it, and it's how I personally play. I just don't think it's right to hold people to that standard, it's just not the game design to go to that extent.

[Solid Squirrlee 2]

I can see both sides of this conversation and it depends on how busy TT is overall as to if there are any empty districts. Players that are on the merit grind in most cases have less patence and are usually maxed toons with nothing in mind but sounding threw the factory. I have been in sevral of the threads where LIL toons think they are being held hostage by BIG toons going long in the factory. If you jump in an elevator without asking first you do it at your own risk. You can't treat every toon as if it is a child playing or you will be over ran by players that will take advantage of your kindness...and you will be lureing for marbles in every battle. Just because You are a maxed toon and don't need the EXP points doesn't mean you have to build another toons gags just because they jumped in the elevator with you. We all pay to play and all have the right to play with whome and how we want. Kehawin has the right to shuffle as many times as it takes to get his/her group in and not have others join them. As A Lil toon I ask before entering the elevator and state my task so they know my intention. If I don't have sound I lure, tune up or go for the highest cog and follow any instructions given to me. The big toons are helping me. If I'm on a big toon I state if I need parts or merits before I get in with any group. Missing an elevator is better than getting in with the wrong group and having problems on the run.

[Kehawin]

Originally Posted by Laurianna Cat

...If you choose to go against the grain, and don't want to fight with other people, that's a fine personal choice... If you don't want others with you, don't be where other people are, it's FAR too easy of a fix to play the game as you like it instead of being angry with people because you want to play the game differently

My point to the thread is that I am tired of people telling me I stink because I am trying to play my way as politely as possible. As you said don't be angry because you want to play the game differently, it goes both ways.

There's a countdown on the elevator. There's usually not the time for the politeness you're demanding... By the time someone asked and got a response, usually the doors would have closed if people were already in the elevator...

But yet, when I or any other toon jumps off the elevator to say No thank you to a toon who just ran up, or wait for other toons to go on ahead w/out us so we can go by ourselves, we are told You stink! It's ok for them to do that, tho, I guess, because... ummm... the don't be angry statement only applies to big toons... is that right?

That "stowaway" you refer to, is just someone trying to play the game as designed, it's not fair for you to consider them taking from you...

And the person writing this post is just someone trying to play the game as well, obviously as designed, since I don't use macros or some other code not belonging to the game. But it's fair for them to get angry if I don't play their way, is that right?

That being said, I do understand prefering to be with your friends doing your normal routine. I go through those stages as well, most of us do. It's just when I feel like playing my own game, my own way, I just get out the public area on a sparse server to do it.

And what if I do go elsewhere, and still ONE toon is there, in every district, telling me I stink because I don't want them to join me?

I just don't think it's right to hold people to that standard.

It's funny that the phrase "holding others to your standard" keeps popping up here, because by telling me you don't think it's right, you are expecting me to conform to your standards.

[Scooter the Kat]

Originally Posted by Kehawin

So yes, if a toon does stowaway (and please re-read the difference between asking for help and stowing away before flaming me) I will generally ignore that they are there. And if they are not actively helping defeat the cogs, I will even pretend *I* am not there.

I agree with that. If I was in there and someone wasn't even IN the fight, I'd wouldn't toon them up for a while when they ARE in the fight. I dislike being the strongest* toon in the building and stuff. That wont be possible once I reach 112 laffs XD
*Strongest laff wise

[rkhooda]

Kehawin's point is very valid. She was only speaking about a very specific thing in the game, that is the factory. So lets not include buildings and stuff here.

I used to think much like you Kehawin. I think its the Hollywood grind that brings you to certain conclusions that you have reached. Not you personaly.

I only did my factory runs and most of the vp runs with friends only. Now our group was rather large so usually there would be two groups doing the factory runs after a vp, not just one. Some times more toons than that.

But eventually what you will find, is that you will be bored to tears. At that point having a little guy making mistakes almost becomes its own side fun. Plus keeping silly little toons alive becomes extra points for a run. Towards the end of our Hollywood carrier our little group of friends would go in factory with just two so we could carry 2 additional toons on purpose.

At first I was bothered by toons not helping. But after a while, you will think "so what?". If you and your friend are high LP toons, then it dosent really matter if the little toons, come, dont come, help, or dont help. As the factory can be done with just two, the other two are (in the computer programming world) no-cares.

So, I will say, if you want to just go with your friends, then just hit empty districts, and do your thing. But if you want a bit of advice on this silly little game, dont even stress it. If little stowaways show up, then whatever. If they help or dont help, your just doing your thing anway. And who knows, if you just stick with your style of playing and it sounds like you know what you are doing, then you may just teach a few people the rules and etticts, and how to play well playing in MMORPG games

Prince Peppy Gigglebounce
111 max no lure

[Bunny Summers]

Originally Posted by Scooter the Kat

I agree with that. If I was in there and someone wasn't even IN the fight, I'd wouldn't toon them up for a while when they ARE in the fight. I dislike being the strongest* toon in the building and stuff. That wont be possible once I reach 112 laffs XD
*Strongest laff wise

I wouldn't even join a fight if I knew they weren't going to join. I'd stand right there with them and wait. Two can play at that game! And when they did join, I'd wait for them to choose first. Fortunately, I have "You first." that I bought. I figure, they'd go sad before I would and showing him/her that if everyone decided to play the game that way, we'd have a bunch of sad toons going around the playground. I just don't give free rides.

Originally Posted by Kehawin

It's funny that the phrase "holding others to your standard" keeps popping up here, because by telling me you don't think it's right, you are expecting me to conform to your standards.

I can think you're play standard is wrong for me, but just because I relay MY standards, I don't expect you to conform to my way of thinking. Usually when I reply to these kinds of threads, it's not conform anyone. If that happens, it happens. Rather, my point in bringing up the philosophy of "My way or the highway" is impossible to convey to other toons who aren't your sf. Sure, people on this board know to ask you now. I probably wouldn't either way. In the factory and in the VP I never ask if I can join someone. If they hop off and say "No thank you", I leave. But because I hold the philosophy (in the game) that anyone can come with me so long as they help and I will help anyone so long as they put in an effort, I don't ask if I can come and I don't tell anyone they can't come UNLESS I have a full group pre-arranged. If it comes to a shuffle vs trying to get my friends in a full elevator, we'll leave and find another district. And as long as I've been playing in the VP/HQ, I have NEVER had an occassion where I haven't found ONE district that didn't have anyone or very few people in it that I couldn't be with the people I wanted or avoid the people I didn't want to.

And as I point out to the kids...if someone tells me "You stink" it wouldn't bother me. If I kept on switching districts and EVERYONE kept telling me I stunk...I'd start to re-evaluate some things. LOL. I know you were probably over-exaggerating. But my point is...if you play as nice as you possibly can and they STILL say "You stink!", don't worry about it. If you don't want to go in at a certain time with certain toons, it doesn't bother me. But try to be aware, just because you want things a certain way doesn't negate the fact that they aren't that way and may never be that way. Etiquette is in the eye of the beholder, too.

I'm kind of confused though by the term "stowaway". Are you defining a "stowaway" toon as someone who gets on and doesn't help or a toon who doesn't ask your permission to come along? Usually the toon who gets on and doesn't help is called a "leech" toon.

[Sential_Mential_Man]

Originally Posted by Bunny Summers

I wouldn't even join a fight if I knew they weren't going to join. I'd stand right there with them and wait. Two can play at that game! And when they did join, I'd wait for them to choose first. Fortunately, I have "You first." that I bought. I figure, they'd go sad before I would and showing him/her that if everyone decided to play the game that way, we'd have a bunch of sad toons going around the playground. I just don't give free rides.

*bows to Bunny Summers* thank you for saying that!!

[Laurianna Cat]

I'm going to go a bit out of order in response, because I keep getting drawn back to this line...

Originally Posted by kehawin

And what if I do go elsewhere, and still ONE toon is there, in every district, telling me I stink because I don't want them to join me?

If you've got toons telling you that you stink in every district, there's got to be something more to the big picture as to how you actually behave in game.

Originally Posted by Kehawin

My point to the thread is that I am tired of people telling me I stink because I am trying to play my way as politely as possible. As you said don't be angry because you want to play the game differently, it goes both ways.

Original post:

This doesn't sound like you're talking about being merely "angry" at their behavior. You're implying you watch them die for having the audacity to enter an elevator you're in without obtaining your written permission beforehand.

Side note:
I'm not saying I'm the champion of little toons everywhere regardless of color, species or size, nor that I've never let anyone take a hit. After the third time somone uses a whistle on lured cogs and being told beforehand not to, they're going to have to learn the hard way why that's a bad idea

Originally Posted by Kehawin