Yo genius: leave your small magnets at home!

[LadyZippyBoingenpretzel]

Originally Posted by Wolfeh

... when you get right down to it, there is no "one size fits all" method of playing. Yes there are bits and pieces of strategies to use for certain circumstances, such as LLKR, but it comes down to what you have to work with and how things are going _at that time_.

<snip>
It's just a matter of adapting to the situation and thinking on your toon feet.

This is going off topic but I had to pull this out and say Wolfeh... AMEN! I don't think I could have said this any better. Everyone has their favorite way to do things, but we just have to work together and can't always have things our way. This does not make the other players clueless idiots - it simply makes them people behind toons who have different favorite ways to do things. Adaptation is the key to enjoying the game, IMO! The only alternative is to spend your life griping or to round up a group of like-minded friends to hang with. Me - I prefer not to spend my time griping - I would rather have fun! For my money, being able to adapt gives me more pleasure than not.

Back on topic - I know you're talking about using red mags when someone else is already luring, but I wanted to add that red mag has saved many a battle for me when big lure failed. A friend consistently has big lure fail but her so-called "Barbie mag" does the trick every time! (not me, my lure is always useless ) I would much rather have someone who has only red mag bring a few - you never know when you'll be sided so that's all you have (much like taking feathers in. Have been in several battles when just a feather would have been peachy). Just know when to use them, would be my preference.

[Flippers]

Originally Posted by Wolfeh

I believe I've said this before and I don't think anyone will disagree with me. It's ok to gag train during a boss run, so long as it works with the team and not against it. ie, ok to train sound if everyone else is using sound. If their sound will get rid of the cogs, then what's wrong with whipping it out (the bike horn for example)? But yeah, it is rather stupid to whip out the bike horn if someone is using goggles, and the other 2 are doing a group toon up.

To digress I have to agree. Let me toon if I can achieve the same thing and you have it maxed.

I use banana peels in the vp and cfo often for three reasons: one: it's funny to see the cold callers and penny pinchers fall on their butts, two: yeah LOW needs to work trap, but MOST of all three: it gives the lure a better chance of succeeding on the big cogs beside the wimpy one.

Actually dumb dog has maxed trap but will still put out peels or marbles for some small cog if it means there's less of a chance of the lure missing AND he isn't needed to hit one on the right. AND of course if there are no ubers present to observe LLKR (I'm not one of those griefers who leave everyone to their fate just to trap the new cog)

Both trappers have organic peels btw

we return to the discussion already in progress

Lady Z: My friends and I call it "the smelly magnet"
Likewise we refer to small cogs falling for level 1 lure cheapies.

But you, Wolfeh, and DJ are on the right track about this. Each instance I experienced the smelly magnet were inappropriate. The odds of there being an entire side totally out of lure in a CCG match is seldom, but if that were to happen - well of course what else can you do but take that thing out and pray?

[DJ Max]

Originally Posted by Wolfeh

...
I believe I've said this before and I don't think anyone will disagree with me. It's ok to gag train during a boss run, so long as it works with the team and not against it. ie, ok to train sound if everyone else is using sound. If their sound will get rid of the cogs, then what's wrong with whipping it out (the bike horn for example)? But yeah, it is rather stupid to whip out the bike horn if someone is using goggles, and the other 2 are doing a group toon up.

yes, of course, thats why I said:

to all those low sound/banana peel/flower pot etc users - who senselessly trying to work out their gags during boss fights

which means that as long as one work gags sensfully - like, for example, using low traps and drop on low cogs, and not on freshly lured one during scele round etc. BTW even with working a low sound when everyone uses higher sound - one should be very attentive as sometimes it is better to use one cake on one of the cogs - and at least take one out , rather than adding nonmaxed low sound gag - which will "underkill" row of 11s. But yes , one can work gags if it doesn't spoil the overall strategy and/or puting team in a risk

Originally Posted by auntkymitoon

This is not remotely true in my opinion- or you actually tested this in 100 VP runs???and this was the result??Hmmmmmmm

With all my respect to you, so just that I learn more about your style - this red big letters means that you are so excited about my post or you scream at me in anger ? heehee

Well in fact I did endless VP fights, I lost count of them - on 90 % of them I was brining both my toons Max and Rainbow (and I still do now) so same as you I could observe battle from "both sides" very often. Once Rainbow made even top toon of the month on most vp defeated, Max was first runner up lol. That "score" I made through doing runs with randoms mostly - so could observe all kinds of VP battle circuses, and noticed one thing - when baby lures are used together with goggles on over 8 lvl cogs - both lure miss, whiles of course outside boss battles - in factorys, streets, low buildings - when it is used together with higher lures on level 6 cogs and under - it hits perfectly!

Low lure is supposed to be used on low level cogs IMO. But then again , like Lady Mo Mo Sparkletoes says:

... no one in this thread has really done some serious experimenting with gags thats worthy of being called "evidence." I think people talk more about their experiences from their WHOLE time on TT...

I'm basing my assumptions on my own experience, and yet, once again, I would strongly disadvise to practice low luring in boss battle cog/scelecog rounds on rows of lvl 8s and up

[Prof. Graham Soursnooker]

Originally Posted by badguy

You haven't really done enough trials to say that organic small magnet is better than regular big magnet.

Okay fine i give more numbers now. The algorithm for lure isdifferent from that of other gags. It is based on a percentage chance of working wnd we kno various factors go into this percentage chance: the level of the gag, the levels of the cogs, the presence of a trap, and the experience of the toon.

What we have not been sure about is how much the organic bonus affects the algorithm. It does increase the accuracy from low to medium (the same accuracy as throw). So what are the odds that a fruit pie slice will hit a 12? Add is trap boost and the odds of a lvl2 organic magnet hitting a 12 increase.

So i have done more trials and here are the results:

organic small magnet

65/70 times with trap
52/68 times without trap

large magnet
52/ 67 times with trap
49/64 times without magnet

Goggles

31 of 33 with trap
25 of 28 without trap

Math should tell you small magnet is working better with trap. Do what you want of course, but I trust it more, and there's no use wasting goggles on trapped cogs.

[Wolfeh]

Originally Posted by Prof. Graham Soursnooker

Math should tell you small magnet is working better with trap. Do what you want of course, but I trust it more, and there's no use wasting goggles on trapped cogs.

Presuming that your findings are reliable and not coincidental (which I have no doubt they are reliable), I think a point that you forget to point out is that when your blue magnet tree is bloomed, they should work better than the red magnets.

[~one&only~]

[quote=Lady Mo Mo Sparkletoes;1414475]

Originally Posted by auntkymitoon

I bet no one in this thread has really done some serious experimenting with gags thats worthy of being called "evidence." I think people talk more about their experiences from their WHOLE time on TT.

Personally, Lady mo mo Sparkletoes does not have lure, but I know, and I've seen more often than not, that when someone pulls out a magnet when someone else goggles, that it misses. This is something that I've experienced as well, and while there will be cases where this isn't true, of course, it certainly has validation. How many times have you seen a toon scream "NO!!!" when a smaller toon whips out his small magnet when he sees the goggles. Lure is not like sound, it does NOT work better (for the most part, or unless you have a friend who's helping you train lure and willing to risk the chances of it missing) when everyone pulls out their magnets at the same time.

actually lady mo mo sparkletoes, this is not true at all. First of all i have seen magnets work before with goggles. Yesterday i used my $5 bill and then i higher toon decided to use his goggles and it still worked. this shows that single cog lures DO work with group cog lures. also when you use a magnet with a bill, what usually ends up happening is one misses while the other ones work. also using magnets together does increase the chance of it missing. Yesterday i was in a really hard 5 story, and i ran out of big magnets from the last 4 stories. I had the highest level lure, and i only have big magnet. anyways all these cog kept coming out on the last floor, and i only had small magnets left. So i took a chance and used it, expecting us all to go sad anyways. The other three decide to use small magnet to, and it worked. It also lasted like 4 or 5 rounds too, if i remeber correctly, as we did not encounter any problems with the cogs waking up. We did this until all the cogs were finished off, and magnet never missed. We encountered about 24 cogs on that last floor, and all of them were level 9-12. Also, wolfeh, while i think youre posts are very wise and are well thought out, you seem to contradict yourself. First, when there are a group of level 11 and 12s present you said you' d fog. Assuming only 1 or 2 toons have a maxxed fog horn (which is usually the case), and none of the cogs will be taken out, than you are putting many mid laff toons in jeopardy. Let's say all the cogs power trip, with 2 12s and 2 11s in the group. assuming the 12s do their usual 21 damage and the 11s do 18 damage, then all toons under 78 laff points die. and that inludes me im 75 laff . and imagine if they are all level 12 cogs, and they all do that 24 point damage attack in power trip mode. That means all toons under 96 laff would die. Don't you think 97+laff is a bit too much to ask for in the vp? as is 78 laff? And then later you talk about taking out the 12s before sounding so that not as much damage to the toons is done. wow ths is getting really off topic.

[Wolfeh]

Originally Posted by hardcoreskier593

Also, wolfeh, while i think youre posts are very wise and are well thought out, you seem to contradict yourself. First, when there are a group of level 11 and 12s present you said you' d fog. Assuming only 1 or 2 toons have a maxxed fog horn (which is usually the case), and none of the cogs will be taken out, than you are putting many mid laff toons in jeopardy. Let's say all the cogs power trip, with 2 12s and 2 11s in the group. assuming the 12s do their usual 21 damage and the 11s do 18 damage, then all toons under 78 laff points die. and that inludes me im 75 laff . and imagine if they are all level 12 cogs, and they all do that 24 point damage attack in power trip mode. That means all toons under 96 laff would die. Don't you think 97+laff is a bit too much to ask for in the vp? as is 78 laff? And then later you talk about taking out the 12s before sounding so that not as much damage to the toons is done. wow ths is getting really off topic.

As I've also said, there is no "one size fits all" method of fighting. It depends on the circumstances. If I'm there with 3 toons, each under 50 laff, and there are 4 12's, that would be risky (at the very least) to fog. If I know someone will be using "cogs miss", then I'll do it, because suddenly the 12's go from 200pts to 150pts (or lower if someone else sounds with me). Sound doing less than 90 points of damage (including gag bonus) won't take out an 8, but doing that, even 89 damage to all cogs, can make 12's easier to take out.

This method is actually most useful in situations where there are 2 that are above level 9 and two that are level 9 and below. (Example, 2 12's and 2 9's) Use 2 fogs, then cake/storm the 2 12's (or double cream pie one of the 12's) It's a way to take out a group of cogs, especially when they are in the higher numbers, with a known counter-attack pending. Unlike some chickens in the game, I don't mind seeing my laff meter getting some black teeth, because we can always toon up.

If I'm with lower laffs, I do what I can to minimize damage to the others. Even those who have never VP'd before are more helpful to me than me being alone in the vp. I'm sure that if I really wanted to, I could solo the VP, but I don't want to.. So that means that I need other players with me, so in a greedy point of view, I have to keep them alive so they can help me.

Like I said before though, there is no "one size fits all" method of fighting. In order to have any sort of a 'guide' for that, it would have to account for how many of each gag is available, laff of each player, cog levels, number of cogs, etc. That by itself would be an exhaustive guide to write, let alone try to learn.

As for luring, it's been my experience that a small and a big magnet together will usually work (the big lures, the small gains credit for it). So unless it's hurting the team (ex 2 are pieing a full 9 and they need that 3rd player to throw too), I don't mind if someone uses their itty bitty magnet with me. It's fun to think, "Mine is bigger" while watching us both lure.

[Prof. Graham Soursnooker]

Originally Posted by Wolfeh

Presuming that your findings are reliable and not coincidental (which I have no doubt they are reliable), I think a point that you forget to point out is that when your blue magnet tree is bloomed, they should work better than the red magnets.

There's no doubt in my mind that this would be the case. In my situation however, I have planted throw to level 6 so i could only plant up to level 2 of another track. What would be the most useful lvl 2 gag? To me it was lure and it has proven to be so.

as far as the numbers, I keep a tally. I'm a statistics professor so its kinda second nature. I must admit though that it has only been tested in the Bullion Mint, which is haunted enough as it is so the data may be biased.